ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Dronma » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:02 pm

padma norbu wrote: When I heard about Dzogchen, I mistakenly understood it to be "easier," but as it turns out, you pretty much have to keep most of the same vows as the rest plus some additional discipline required to sort out what's different and how in your mind. All in all, it's been rough.


You are in the right direction! :twothumbsup:
Yes, it is rough in the beginning.
Maybe now it is time that you learn how to relaxxx.... :smile:
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:04 am

I have actually had 3 of the worst days I've had in a very long time, after watching the Dorje Drollo webcast. Honestly, it was surrounding events that have been scheduled for months, and I'm not convinced that it would have turned out any differently if I had not done the retreat, but one can't help but wonder. I am not an accomplished master, by any means. But I did feel that I could approach this sadhana without problems. Dorje Drollo actually came to me by complete accident. A Rinpoche that I have a very strong secondary connection to through my root Lama has been in house arrest for years in Tibet, but just recently was able to broadcast a webcast, with one of our "people" translating for him in a hotel room in Tibet (I still don't know how they got around Chinese blocks at this tense time). He offered a few Wangs, one of which was Adzom Drukpa's Dorje Drollo... So when I found out that only a few days after that ChNNR was going to be giving teachings on the practice, I knew that I had to do it. So I did the practice for two days, but my world kind of fell apart and I went to my go-to: close up, watch Lord of the Rings all day, and completely avoid being smart about it and practicing my way through it. How samsaric, right? :thinking: Luckily, I was able to kick my butt back into gear and practice. (It's always amazing how stupidly simple it is to stop life from sucking...) I am still a little tentative about returning to Dorje Drollo right now, though.
Was DOING Dorje Drollo causing me to fall apart (in a bad way...)? Was stopping causing it? Or was it something completely different? I have no idea. But I definitely had a kind of world-falling-apart sequence following the retreat, for sure.

I'm also very hesitant to ever do wrathful practice in the first place. I'm a die-hard Chodpa, and devotee of Machig Labdron, who always spoke against doing wrathful mantras to harm demons and obstructors. Feeding them is always considered to be preferential. Hell, we shouldn't even technically[i] use guggul in rituals... But 99% of Lamas who teach Chod don't follow these guidelines, so I'm just a bit uncomfortable. Trying to decide if possibly doing Dorje Drollo could cause some kind of problems in my Chod practice, or go against my commitment to the Chod lineage.
Not sure if I'm really asking a question here, just kinda expressing my thoughts at the moment. It's been a really shit-tastic couple of days, so I'm still a bit overwhelmed. So thankful for the Dharma, though. Can't even imagine where or [i]if
I would be without it.
"Whatever arises, carry it onto the path."
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:23 am

In my experience, receiving powerful empowerments and teachings, or doing retreats or periods of more intensive practice, is very very frequently accompanied by serious flare-ups of inner emotional or mild health obstacles and sometimes outer obstacles as well. I've always been left with an impression of this stuff being powerful ripening and purification of my own past negative karmas, karmas that would have eventually ripened regardless, but maybe in a much worse and more enduring way. So, I relate to it like a crash purification, "bam!" then soon purified and over with. I dunno, that's just my impression.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Josef » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:44 am

Drolo is powerful, no doubt about it. But it is like other things that are potentially dangerous but make things happen.
When you cook Julia Childs boeuf bourguignon do you take it out of the oven without wearing mitts? Of course not because you know the circumstances and application of heat in order to make a delicious meal.
Using powerful tools always requires attention and caution, apply them properly and the tool will help you get the job done.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:02 am

Could someone please clarify, what might determine whether a practice such as Dorje Drollo will cause havoc?

Like, in Nangwa's example, you wear oven mitts when taking boeuf bourguignon out of the oven. So please complete the sentence:

When practicing Dorje Drollo, be sure to _______________________________________________________.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Josef » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:16 am

I think you guys are worrying a bit too much.
You're aware of the situation, Rinpoche gave you the transmission.
If you choose to, do the practice.
Approaching practice with caution is good, but don't let it turn in to paranoia and neurosis.
Just work with your circumstances.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby blackpath » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:25 am

Namdrol wrote:gro bo lot is a Apabhramsa corruption of krodhalokottara according to Situ Panchen.


Thank you for that. I'm now curious as to how krodhalokottara might have shifted (or originated) in Udyaana dialect. Hazard a guess?
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby padma norbu » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:30 am

FWIW, I just found practically the exact opposite description of Dorje Drolo:

Dorjie Drolod is the most important among the great manifestation of Guru Padmasambhava.

According to both Buddha and the Guru Padmasambhava, this degenerative era is characterized by strong forms of desire and anger. These are the major obstacles confronting practitioners nowadays. Dorje Drolo is the emanation related to the transformation of these situations.

Dorje Drolo is a very special and powerful influence to help clear away and dispel complex loops of mental and emotional obstacles. People who are aware of feeling mentally unstable or unhappy for no apparent reason would do well to practice on Dorje Drolo. Even though everything is together, sometimes the mind doesn't feel comfortable, relaxed or at peace. This is when such practice is really relevant. When there are unsettled feelings, it is particularly useful to meditate on Dorje Drolo. This will help calm and balance the mind.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Mr. G » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:07 am

Nangwa wrote:I think you guys are worrying a bit too much.
You're aware of the situation, Rinpoche gave you the transmission.
If you choose to, do the practice.
Approaching practice with caution is good, but don't let it turn in to paranoia and neurosis.
Just work with your circumstances.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Mr. G » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:10 am

padma norbu wrote:I hope this is not really true. I am about the worst practitioner there is and I now have a Dorje Drolo statue coming to my house!



IMHO, if you are worried even the slightest about practicing Drolo, don't practice Drolo - you're not ready for it. Paranoia and practice don't mix well together.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby padma norbu » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 am

I'm not really worried about it because I wasn't planning to do it until I felt ready. That other guy made me a little paranoid for a second about the statue I just bought, but I'm over that. Once I found the other description of Dorje Drolo, which I just posted, I felt pretty non-paranoid. It was an open webcast, fer chrissakes, and ChNN didnt say anything worrisome about it.

PS -sorry for the little joke that apparently someone felt needed to be deleted. I was actually threatened and stalked by a schizophrenic person, so that's where the idea came from. He literally believes I have been sending demonic attacks to him at night since 90-something. And I have literally done nothing but be his friend who moved away to NY. So, I know mentally unbalanced people can come up with some scary logic and they can very much be dangerous.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby blackpath » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:14 am

JinpaRangdrol wrote:Was DOING Dorje Drollo causing me to fall apart (in a bad way...)?
I'm also very hesitant to ever do wrathful practice in the first place.


Probably not. I think its a tendency for many practitioners to have expectations for a new practice to produce results immediately (and perhaps for some of high capacity it does) but in my case it takes significant effort and time. Now of course there are a lot of experiences, but if I examine them carefully, those rough periods are usually the result of what I've been doing the past week, month, 90 days, dependent as well on diet, exercise, and other mundane factors. Sitting down for a short retreat, getting a bit of clarity, and then looking at yourself clearly can be brutal, and it can feel awful (fall apart even a bit perhaps?) or the other way around. I think of it like the weather. The long tail of karma and its ups and downs, pushes ahead whether I practice or not, I've found.

It's been best for me to not give too much thought to these episodes or experiences. Trying to connect practice to immediate cause and effect in every day interaction falls toward magical thinking, and away from the full breadth and timeline of factors that support the immediate state of presence and well-being.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby michaelb » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:30 pm

padma norbu wrote:FWIW, I just found practically the exact opposite description of Dorje Drolo:
Dorjie Drolod is the most important among the great manifestation of Guru Padmasambhava.

According to both Buddha and the Guru Padmasambhava, this degenerative era is characterized by strong forms of desire and anger. These are the major obstacles confronting practitioners nowadays. Dorje Drolo is the emanation related to the transformation of these situations.

Dorje Drolo is a very special and powerful influence to help clear away and dispel complex loops of mental and emotional obstacles. People who are aware of feeling mentally unstable or unhappy for no apparent reason would do well to practice on Dorje Drolo. Even though everything is together, sometimes the mind doesn't feel comfortable, relaxed or at peace. This is when such practice is really relevant. When there are unsettled feelings, it is particularly useful to meditate on Dorje Drolo. This will help calm and balance the mind.
thanks for posting this explanation by Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche. If anyone wants to read the full teaching on Guru Rinpoche's Eight Manifestations, please look here: http://www.turtlehill.org/khen/eman.html (The Drolo section is at the bottom of the page before the conclusion)

I think the potential problems caused by the practice may have been overstated here. The real issue, as I understand it, is doing the practice with the incorrect motivation and identifying with your ego rather than the enlightened mind of Dorje Drolo. In her doctoral thesis, Cathy Cantwell looked at the sadhanas and ritual practices of the Nyingma (Dudjom Tersar) gompa in Tso Pema, (incidentally, where I got the Dudjom Drolo wang) including their daily practice of Drolo and the torma casting ritual or lower activity (smad-las) practice at the end of the year. After the torma is thrown as a weapon she explains the meditation on the protective circle.

"As the lay-people moved from the scene, Padma sKal-bzang remained still, making hand guestures ("mudra"), and meditating on the Protection Mandala. This meditation is to eradicate any trace of the weapon in case the practitioner has at any stage lost awareness of the inseparability of his mind and that of the yi-dam (i.e. the Enlightened Mind). This would constitute an identification with "Rudra" - egocentredness sprung from ignorance, characterised by the poisons - and given the forcefulness of this ritual, the "weapon" might backfire to strike the unenlightened meditator. Although the aim of the practice is that the "Rudra" within (as well as without) should be destroyed, the meditator should never identify with "Rudra", or let himself be harmed, since this is tantamount to denying one's true Buddha Nature, and may also obstruct the potential for realisation. While the "Rudra" is destroyed, it is crucial for the meditator to identify with the Enlightened manifestation, and to develop awareness of the ultimate emptiness and insubstaniality of all projections. Thus, in the Protection Mandala meditation, designed to reaffirm the "samaya" or "bond", the meditator identifies with the yi-dam, and all the Buddhas consecrate the Reealisation. Then, all appearances dissolve, and finally, with the background awareness of emptiness still present, the Protection Mandala, indestructible because it is not substantial enough to attack, arises."

So, as has previously been mentioned, the biggest problem is to identify with Rudra rather than on our own nature, and to use Drolo as an extension of our ego without awareness.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby padma norbu » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:10 pm

it must get kind of tricky. yes, I can certainly see why you'd want to make sure you are solid in your practice.

Sometimes, I wonder if warnings are overstated for the sake of the absolutely most ignorant, most troubled and weakest practitioners. I definitely belong to this category, but still I wonder. :smile: It would be great to have a "meditation machine" that shows you how well your meditation is going so you can determine in the comfort of your own home how good you are. That is exactly what some researchers at Yale are working on. There's a screen that turns red or blue depending on if you are meditating right. One of the guys talking about it explained how he goes up through various jhanas and it sounded like he was talking about something so casual as getting in an elevator and pressing the top floor button. Currently, the research is primarily using Theravada methods, but they want to start using meditators from every tradition... anyone interested in participating?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:48 pm

This is a great biofeedback machine, and not too expensive:

http://www.heartmathstore.com/

It measures the coherence of your heart rhythm. It was made to be used for "stress reduction" but you could use it to get some clue about how effective your meditation practice is.

Sorry, I know this is off topic. but wanted to share that with Padma Norbu and anyone else who might be interested.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Pero » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:31 pm

michaelb wrote:
padma norbu wrote:FWIW, I just found practically the exact opposite description of Dorje Drolo:
Dorjie Drolod is the most important among the great manifestation of Guru Padmasambhava.

According to both Buddha and the Guru Padmasambhava, this degenerative era is characterized by strong forms of desire and anger. These are the major obstacles confronting practitioners nowadays. Dorje Drolo is the emanation related to the transformation of these situations.

Dorje Drolo is a very special and powerful influence to help clear away and dispel complex loops of mental and emotional obstacles. People who are aware of feeling mentally unstable or unhappy for no apparent reason would do well to practice on Dorje Drolo. Even though everything is together, sometimes the mind doesn't feel comfortable, relaxed or at peace. This is when such practice is really relevant. When there are unsettled feelings, it is particularly useful to meditate on Dorje Drolo. This will help calm and balance the mind.
thanks for posting this explanation by Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche. If anyone wants to read the full teaching on Guru Rinpoche's Eight Manifestations, please look here: http://www.turtlehill.org/khen/eman.html (The Drolo section is at the bottom of the page before the conclusion)

Thanks!
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Dronma » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:47 pm

Nangwa wrote:I think you guys are worrying a bit too much.
You're aware of the situation, Rinpoche gave you the transmission.
If you choose to, do the practice.
Approaching practice with caution is good, but don't let it turn in to paranoia and neurosis.
Just work with your circumstances.


I totally agree with Nangwa! :twothumbsup:
Dorje Drollo is one of the 8 manifestations of Guru Padmasambhava!!!
If we have good connection with Guru Padmasambhava, why to be afraid of his wrathful Dorje Drollo face???
None is obliged to do the practice if he/she is not ready to....
There are many practises and each of them is sufficient by itself!
No reason to push hardly ourselves for doing something because we imagine "this" or "that".
The realization is the same for everybody and it is attained by any authentic practice. :namaste:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby padma norbu » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:25 pm

Interesting development... I don't want to read too much into it, but my Dorje Drolo statue arrived just in time for Valentine's Day ... long story short, the day after my statue arrived, my wife had a complete meltdown on Valentine's Day, but it looks like it might be a good thing because I finally realized her mood swings aren't really about me and she's got a Doctor's appointment booked. Plans on probably getting medicine. Seems like this could ultimately be a very good thing; in fact, though I am against meds, it might be what we've needed for a long time. She won't change her diet or use natural supplements, and she doesn't really see the world like me at all (samsara), so meds seem ideal, I suppose.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:31 am

Are the Dorje Drolo terma files on TBRC translated into English or are they only in Tibetan?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

Postby Josef » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:08 am

Fa Dao wrote:Are the Dorje Drolo terma files on TBRC translated into English or are they only in Tibetan?

Only Tibetan as far as I know.
I would love to see a translation of it as well.
My extremely amateurish attempts to translate parts of it arent really getting the job done if you know what I mean.
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