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The Danger of Rebirth - Page 16 - Dhamma Wheel

The Danger of Rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 am



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kc2dpt
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 am

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:22 am

- Peter


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tiltbillings
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:38 am


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:38 am



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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:49 am



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mikenz66
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:49 am


nathan
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby nathan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:44 am

I'm not sure who is who anymore after 14 pages and I am not going to read it again!

So, to whoever Tilt has been laboring to get through to, all I can offer is this:

There is plenty of consciousness apart from a sense support. Plenty of being without bodies. A plague of it.

Rebirth isn't a big deal. The body dies, the aggregates fall apart and life ends, completely, consciousness ceases. Then, a moment later, another consciousness arises and this consciousness is also only momentary, just as the last was only momentary and only the last in a series of moments of consciousness. The ignorance and kamma of the previous aggregate beings are the causes for the maintenance of desire and desire is the cause of yet another consciousness arising when the previous relationships between mentality/materiality have ended. When a new set of aggregates is assembled this always begins with a new consciousness, if a given consciousness craves a gross material or a fine material body this new series of consciousness moments will have to seek one out and form a new association. No body of any kind arises first, apart from the presence of a series of moments of clinging consciousness, not ever.

There are a lot of links or conditioning in many past lives which conditions many future lives. All of that is a kind of linking. This new consciousness continues arising and disappearing in relation to a series of contacts with it's own consciousness quality and/or whatever else it can make contact with. This seeking out new contacts is a "re-linking". New contacts with consciousness, with thought objects, with a new set of aggregates, with a new body, etc.. None of this is substantial, all of it is transitory and impermanent.

No one with any credibility in Theravada circles argues that ANYTHING is not like this. Alleging that many generally credible people do so argue only ever betrays the narrowness of one's own thinking.

Where anyone makes any kinds of distinctions these are only for the purpose of pointing out various relationships. The reality of the whole and of the parts is always INSUBSTANTIAL. So there is no relative point in nitpicking about any of it in whole or in part. It is either a useful relationship to examine or not for each of us to determine individually.

I'm forming the impression that you are tending towards the thinking that a sense of self pertains only to the concept of "I", which is pretty easy to dispose of as these things go. Assuming you have done so (about as hard as snapping your fingers), how is the dukkha situation looking now?

It seems that some are getting the impression that you are more interested in setting everyone else straight than in working things out for yourself. If that is so, woe to you. If not, you might want to make that very clear.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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robertk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby robertk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:20 am


DarkDream
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby DarkDream » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:37 am

This is a really long thread. Given its length it appears that people have really strong opinions on this.

I on the other hand do have the conviction that the belief in rebirth can be dangerous in the sense that it clearly one of the areas in Buddhism that so much misunderstanding and attachment has resulted from.

I have a forum and have made various posts on this topic. Here is one post in particular .

I personally believe that many of the stock passages on rebirth and even the first two insights of the Buddha were later additions. In my blog I am developing this theory by examining the texts.

For me is that the whole notion of rebirth from the literal perspective is nothing but a child's fantasy which easily appeals to the rather unsophisticated minds due to its inherent simpilicity and unprovable explanatory power. Unfortunately, I believe the Buddha's notion of karma and rebirth got distorted to from his orginal psychological revolutionary perspective to a more "popularized" version. To me this is the danger as many of my posts on my blog show, it can greatly obscure the real important message the Buddha is talking about.

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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:12 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:39 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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kc2dpt
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:41 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:03 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:08 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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kc2dpt
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:25 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:38 pm

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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:41 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:03 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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kc2dpt
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:02 pm

- Peter



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