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Experience (of?) Nibbana - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Experience (of?) Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:29 pm


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 am


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:10 am


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:50 am


Kenshou
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:57 am

Hey Geoff, thanks for your comments. I have one remaining question about all this. To what extent is non-attention to "signs", as seems to be explained the passages by ven. Ñāṇananda you've quoted, necessary for total dukkhanirodha, for the fruition of arahantship? I can understand how such a thing might occur, but it also seems to me that there is no harm in saññā continuing to do it's thing and perceive objects, though the individual would know that such perceptions are impermanent and selfless and so be liberated from any potential dukkha in regards to perception, and yet it does not necessarily need to switched off into animitta-mode.

I'm trying to strip this down to the bare bones in regard to the cessation of dukkha, you see, since that's really the whole point.

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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:07 am


Kenshou
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:15 am

Ah, yes, upon rereading the quotes from Ñāṇananda that does seem to be the point. Thanks.

So then it is not perception that is the problem but the perception of permanence that causes one to grasp at something with the misguided hope of it providing lasting satisfaction.

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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:38 pm

In defence of void...!

AN 9.34 PTS: A iv 414
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

See also: AN 9.42
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:11 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:36 pm

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

Hi Geoff,

Fruition absorptions contain the deepest amount detachment in any mental state imaginable. They don't arise because something has been gained but because something has been given up.

Note how Ven sariputta says that even the slightest sanna, the slightest arising is dukkha. While I agree that person may experience magga- phala citta and progress up the path without fruition absorptions or nirodha samapatti, these phenemena are 'living proof' that nibbana is a viable occurence. When arising and passing away ceases what remains is a negative 'space'. Absence cannot be impermanent, except conceptually. Coming out of these states concepts such as 'anicca and 'dukkha' start applying again. Note that Ven sariputta calls the above state nibbana, even though that absence itself does not last. I think those aryas known as 'body witness' may fall into those experiencing fruition absorptions.

With metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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EricJ
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby EricJ » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:48 pm

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

Sunrise
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Sunrise » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:22 pm


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Sunrise » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:26 pm

IMO the right view without effluents does not necessarily mean that the person who has the view is free from all mental defilement (aka attained Nibbana) but it means that this "view" does not lead to defilement or asava (desire), which is why it is a factor of the path to enlightenment.

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EricJ
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby EricJ » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:15 pm

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

Nyana
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:28 am


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:17 am


Sunrise
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Sunrise » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:08 am


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Sunrise » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:46 am


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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

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