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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:31 am 
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Look,Teknix, you've got to engage me in a discussion here. Try to answer my questions. You're just making these statements, using buzzwords that likely mean completely different things to you than to me. Regarding "assumptions," we're using words, and we have to be careful not to "assume" that we understand these words mean the same thing.

For example, realizing the selflessness of phenomena has very little to do with Metta, in the traditional Buddhist model. Certainly, it has much to do with the selflessness of beings--who are a type of phenomena, in a sense. but when we talk about external phenomena, there's very little use for "love," I'd argue.

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Quote:
Even with metta, it is still damaging to the energy within. Not something to be taken lightly or something for anyone less than adept should even consider imo
about "peering into the void."

The traditional Buddhist model, in contrast, talks about the experience of emptiness as liberating. Certainly not damaging. Though if one is attached to one's ego, the ego will certainly feel it to be "damaged."

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:42 am 
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Gate--is pronounced "Gah-Tay."

Like, "Gah-tay gah-tay pear a sam gah tay....."

Not Gate, like, uhm, "Bill Gates." Or Garden Gate.

But maybe you knew that.....hard to know, if you've only read it in books and never heard a teacher pronounce it, eh?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:44 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
Look,Teknix, you've got to engage me in a discussion here. Try to answer my questions. You're just making these statements, using buzzwords that likely mean completely different things to you than to me. Regarding "assumptions," we're using words, and we have to be careful not to "assume" that we understand these words mean the same thing.

For example, realizing the selflessness of phenomena has very little to do with Metta, in the traditional Buddhist model. Certainly, it has much to do with the selflessness of beings--who are a type of phenomena, in a sense. but when we talk about external phenomena, there's very little use for "love," I'd argue.

You say that
Quote:
Even with metta, it is still damaging to the energy within. Not something to be taken lightly or something for anyone less than adept should even consider imo
about "peering into the void."

The traditional Buddhist model, in contrast, talks about the experience of emptiness as liberating. Certainly not damaging. Though if one is attached to one's ego, the ego will certainly feel it to be "damaged."


I am trying to explain to you that emptiness is not the nothingness of the absolute void, they are different.

Where in the Buddhist model does it say that emptiness equates nothingness?

If I insinuated anything to cause this misconception please show me where.

It seems more than likely that you have done some peering of your own with probable misinstruction.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:51 am 
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teknix wrote:
Can you think of any task that cannot be performed with well written instruction and proper tools? (beliefs aside)


Yes--a colonoscopy. Open Heart Surgery. Brain Surgery. Man, I could go on, but the fact is, sometimes you need a mentor, and "hands-on experience," with someone at your side, before you can go off on your own and perform a task. Do you disagree?

Meditation, or any spiritual practice, is more subtle--but I'd argue that it takes perhaps a different kind of experienced mentor, someone who's been to those "places," and also someone who's worked with all different kinds of folks, as the contents of minds seem to be infinitely more variable than the structures of physical organs, eh?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:51 am 
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Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond

Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond

Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond

Oh what an Awakening

Where is it going and what is gone? Gone to where, beyond what?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:55 am 
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I know the answer and I'm not a "Buddhist"

Buddha was just right, yet not the only one who was right.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:02 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
teknix wrote:
Can you think of any task that cannot be performed with well written instruction and proper tools? (beliefs aside)


Yes--a colonoscopy. Open Heart Surgery. Brain Surgery. Man, I could go on, but the fact is, sometimes you need a mentor, and "hands-on experience," with someone at your side, before you can go off on your own and perform a task. Do you disagree?

Meditation, or any spiritual practice, is more subtle--but I'd argue that it takes perhaps a different kind of experienced mentor, someone who's been to those "places," and also someone who's worked with all different kinds of folks, as the contents of minds seem to be infinitely more variable than the structures of physical organs, eh?


I do not disagree with "sometimes" or even often, my disagreement is with it being necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:04 am 
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The same hazards exist within, regardless if someone is holding your hand.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:06 am 
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So, do you know what the potential pratfalls, and pitfalls, of "wrong" directions in spiritual practice can be? Can you list some for us? Because there ARE wrong directions, that's for sure..


(I'm going to assume you feel that your argument regarding necessity applies only to spiritual practice, and not to colonoscopies or major surgery, just to get that out of the way....)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:07 am 
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Some teachers may deny one love simply due to tradition. There are many men in this world that would be happy to push you into the void, rather than help you transverse it.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:09 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
So, do you know what the potential pratfalls, and pitfalls, of "wrong" directions in spiritual practice can be? Can you list some for us? Because there ARE wrong directions, that's for sure..


(I'm going to assume you feel that your argument regarding necessity applies only to spiritual practice, and not to colonoscopies or major surgery, just to get that out of the way....)


I told you absolute void, or equating nothingness to emptiness is wrong view.

Do you agree or disagree?


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:21 am 
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I don't think everything needs teacher in the sense of face to face.

Even If you see Dalai Lama, unless you are someone special, you may see him far far behind. In this case there is no difference watching his teachings through YouTube or really there seeing him with your eyes.

For certain meditation technique, which involves for example certain movements, probably this kind of things needs teacher.

But, for certain meditation technique, which is simpler such as breathing, listening to his talk or reading his book is quite similar with being presence in front of him. Definitely, if you have a chance to be face to face, you can ask specific questions related to your issue, so your problem can be solved faster. If you don't have that change, you should rely on studying on many books or video. We may solve our specific problems slower, but at the same time we also gain more knowledge, which is also good.

If I want to learn a bicycle, I don't think a teacher is necessary. If I fall down, it is not too dangerous. This falling down itself actually can become the best teacher on earth, because we directly experiencing the pitfall.

But, if I want to learn how to fly the aero plane, it is better for me to look for a teacher. The damage is too risky.

So, it depends on how complex is the problem.

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:38 am 
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teknix wrote:

It is kept away not for safety, but for profit.


Secret just means don't share things with people a) when they are not interested b) one does not have the proper qualifications to share them properly (i.e. experience).

N

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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:40 am 
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teknix wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
So, do you know what the potential pratfalls, and pitfalls, of "wrong" directions in spiritual practice can be? Can you list some for us? Because there ARE wrong directions, that's for sure..


(I'm going to assume you feel that your argument regarding necessity applies only to spiritual practice, and not to colonoscopies or major surgery, just to get that out of the way....)


I told you absolute void, or equating nothingness to emptiness is wrong view.

Do you agree or disagree?

I don't believe there is an absolute void, so the question can't really be answered. Emptiness is merely the lack of findability of a "thing," whatever that thing may be-including a "void," or "emptiness."

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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:50 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
teknix wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
So, do you know what the potential pratfalls, and pitfalls, of "wrong" directions in spiritual practice can be? Can you list some for us? Because there ARE wrong directions, that's for sure..


(I'm going to assume you feel that your argument regarding necessity applies only to spiritual practice, and not to colonoscopies or major surgery, just to get that out of the way....)


I told you absolute void, or equating nothingness to emptiness is wrong view.

Do you agree or disagree?

I don't believe there is an absolute void, so the question can't really be answered. Emptiness is merely the lack of findability of a "thing," whatever that thing may be-including a "void," or "emptiness."


The answer can only be deduced. Awareness can not be seen without a reflection.

Emptiness is the absence of the reflection. It's not to say there is not awareness, it is to say awareness is not the reflection.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:54 am 
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teknix wrote:
Awareness can not be seen without a reflection.


Hence paths based on mind are limited and insufficient for liberation.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:56 am 
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The only thing is to drop the reflection, or look away from it, so to speak. This is what awakens one, to allow "awareness" to move. The hazard being moving it directly into "the void" without metta for anchor or even with it is hazardous. (imo)

Becoming one with the void would be considered liberation from the perspective of that oneness with the void, as it is absolute. Yet when looked at from another perspective it could be considered annihilation. There is no alternative perspective within the void, only one absolute with nothing. It would end individual suffering, yet do little to aid anyone else, or ever realize metta. You won't realize metta because there is nowhere to go within the absolute oneness of nothing.

Now maybe you can see how things can be both wrong and right, either, or. That truth is absolute only from that perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:27 am 
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Edit *

The only thing is to drop the reflection, or look away from it, so to speak. This is what awakens one, to allow "awareness" to move. The hazard being moving it directly into "the void" without metta for anchor or even with it is hazardous. (imo)

Becoming one with the void would be considered liberation from the perspective of that oneness with the void, as it is absolute. Yet when looked at from another perspective it could be considered annihilation. There is no alternative perspective within the void, only one absolute with nothing. It would end individual suffering, yet do little to aid anyone else, or ever realize metta. You won't realize metta because there is nowhere to go within the absolute oneness of nothing.

Now maybe you can see how things can be wrong, right, and, either, or. That truth is absolute only from that perspective.

*


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:38 am 
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Selflessness of phenomena is something to be realized, not something to be understood. It can be articulated, but only after the fact and only appears as a finger pointing.

Don't waste time to ponder it or think about it imo, the individual selflessness must suffice until metta is realized. The individual selflessness is no small feat in its own right, for then you may work on metta.

IE: the phenomena must be experienced before there is determining anything about it, let alone its emptiness.


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 Post subject: Re: teknix's Views
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:39 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
teknix wrote:
Awareness can not be seen without a reflection.


Hence paths based on mind are limited and insufficient for liberation.


Hehe, by this you mean "paths other than Dzogchen" right?


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