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Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby catmoon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:31 am

Well if you want the technical details, there are sutras that describe exactly which fetters have been cut by an arhat.
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby Mr. G » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:01 pm

teknix wrote:
catmoon wrote:I don't know what you mean.


Mr. G said that he is "choosing" to be an Arhat, when, where, how even is this a choice? If metta is fully realized, there is not a choice about wanting others to realize this as well, that is part of the effect of the realization.

The only way that an Arhat makes sense to me is as a stage of a spiritual sort of mitosis, not a person or choice?


In Mahayana, Arhats eventually end up on the bodhisattva path.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby daelm » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:21 pm

teknix wrote:I was thinking of the the term Arhat, that is apparently an individual who accepts "Greed and Desire"?



hi teknix

what do you mean by this? i'm not getting it.



d
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:50 pm

There is not any true spiritual undertaking that "requires" you to be in the presence and to pay another. Spirituality is not something anyone can do for you. They can try and charge you for it, but those are just peddlers selling beliefs generally, imo.

The internet is already consisting of anything and everything you need info, and guidance wise, it is up to you to do the work. These forums are a dime a dozen, you should find many people to replace your paying someone. One person has never had more knowledge then all of humanity, it is impossible because that one person is a part of humanity. Humanity is the best teacher, use everyone, all of us, and then you do the sorting. You do the knowing. You seek the truth, and not accept ANY belief which is beyond knowing.
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:00 pm

I found that it was mans greed and desire of ownership and an "easier" life for not only himself, but for his predecessors, too. This greed last beyond the originator to enslave those who fallow and conform to it and its ways. That is why there exist many forms of Buddhism, Christianity, Muslim, etc, because of the people who deemed to own it, yet did not originate it.

Notice that non of the divisions ever occur while the originator of the text is still around, it is not until after they are gone that the ego's of men began to take over and start owning the works in various ways.
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:05 pm

daelm wrote:
teknix wrote:I was thinking of the the term Arhat, that is apparently an individual who accepts "Greed and Desire"?



hi teknix

what do you mean by this? i'm not getting it.



d


I mean that he accepts "Greed and Desire" as a part of "his" essential nature, like he is bound with it and unable to release that bond?
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby Mr. G » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:10 pm

teknix wrote:The internet is already consisting of anything and everything you need info, and guidance wise, it is up to you to do the work.


This is nonsense. A beginner can't learn how to meditate properly over the internet.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:11 pm

Meditation is just clearing your mind, the rest is internal alchemy. I have been through many MCO's without a man to instruct me in person. Metta is even described particularly well on wikipedia. No one can do metta for you, it all happens within. A teacher can't really guide you anymore than some can guide theirself, until the self even ceases to be a guide. Again, no one teacher knows more than humanity combined.
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:16 pm

Buddha wrote:Gods and men are making offerings
To the present Buddhas of the worlds of the ten quarters.
The Buddhas as many as there are sands in the River Ganges
Who appeared in this worlds,
Are expounding the Dharma
For the purpose of giving peace to all living beings.
The know the Highest Truth of Tranquil Extinction.
They have the power to employ expedients.
Although they expound the various teachings,
Their purpose is to reveal the Buddha-vehicle.

Knowing the deeds of all living beings,
And their thoughts deep in their minds,
And the karmas they have done in their previous existence,
And their desires, natures, and powers to make efforts,
And also knowing whether each of them is keen or dull,
The Buddhas expound the Dharma according to their capacities,
With various stories of previous lives, parables, similes, and discourses
That is to say, with various expedients.


Lotus Sutra, chapter 2, trans. Senchu Murano

Now, as it happens, the division of the Dharma into various vehicles, including the Shravaka, the Pratyeka, and Bodhisattva vehicles, are among these expedients. The narrative in the Lotus Sutra is that all are subsumed as various upaya of one coherent pedagogy, so to speak, which is the one Buddha-vehicle, which is itself intended to make all beings Buddhas.

To the OP: did the Buddha intend for the teaching to be divided? Well, it is divided in presentation and in practice, because people are divided by their capacities and preoccupations and other nonsense. In reality, it's a seamless whole. Namo Buddhaya!
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:18 pm

Mr. G wrote:
teknix wrote:I was thinking of the the term Arhat, that is apparently an individual who accepts "Greed and Desire"? I am under the impression that to grok the heart center inherently creates a desire to want to help others. So where do the arhats go wrong? The only thing that I can think of is that the teaching is incomplete or metta has yet to have been fully realized without the inference of ego.


Arhat's don't "go wrong". They choose personal enlightenment as opposed to enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings.


So what fault is it of the student if the teaching leads them to this "state" ? It would be logical to deduce the the teaching that caused such a thing is at fault.


It's not a "fault" to be an Arhat....it is an option.


Some go further and claim that, as an option, it really amounts to something analogous to temporary pause for refreshment, like the magical city (again, thinking of the Lotus Sutra)
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:20 pm

Jikan wrote:
Buddha wrote:Gods and men are making offerings
To the present Buddhas of the worlds of the ten quarters.
The Buddhas as many as there are sands in the River Ganges
Who appeared in this worlds,
Are expounding the Dharma
For the purpose of giving peace to all living beings.
The know the Highest Truth of Tranquil Extinction.
They have the power to employ expedients.
Although they expound the various teachings,
Their purpose is to reveal the Buddha-vehicle.

Knowing the deeds of all living beings,
And their thoughts deep in their minds,
And the karmas they have done in their previous existence,
And their desires, natures, and powers to make efforts,
And also knowing whether each of them is keen or dull,
The Buddhas expound the Dharma according to their capacities,
With various stories of previous lives, parables, similes, and discourses
That is to say, with various expedients.


Lotus Sutra, chapter 2, trans. Senchu Murano

Now, as it happens, the division of the Dharma into various vehicles, including the Shravaka, the Pratyeka, and Bodhisattva vehicles, are among these expedients. The narrative in the Lotus Sutra is that all are subsumed as various upaya of one coherent pedagogy, so to speak, which is the one Buddha-vehicle, which is itself intended to make all beings Buddhas.

To the OP: did the Buddha intend for the teaching to be divided? Well, it is divided in presentation and in practice, because people are divided by their capacities and preoccupations and other nonsense. In reality, it's a seamless whole. Namo Buddhaya!


Thank you for sharing that!

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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby Mr. G » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:24 pm

teknix wrote:Meditation is just clearing your mind, the rest is internal alchemy.


This statment is precisely why one should not learn meditation from the internet. This is a contrived an incorrect way of meditation that will not lead you to liberation.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:29 pm

When you insist on going your own way and avoiding a teacher, you are putting a deluded person in charge of your development: yourself.

Would you give yourself a dental filling? A colonoscopy? No: you'd trust a competent person for that. Similarly for Buddhist practice.

For the OP, there are particular challenges that need to be addressed. But as a general rule, it's much better to practice with others and with a capable teacher if you want to get some results.
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Re: Did Buddha mean for his teaching to be divided?

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:29 pm

Sure, I hope it's helpful to you.

:cheers:
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:30 pm

Mr. G wrote:
teknix wrote:Meditation is just clearing your mind, the rest is internal alchemy.


This statment is precisely why one should not learn meditation from the internet. This is a contrived an incorrect way of meditation that will not lead you to liberation.


Semantics, again you pursue the differences. Tell me what you actually know and have experienced or even realized that I may judge you in the same manner as you ASSUME to judge me. I will have more to go on though, because I will use questions and demand jakugo.
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby Paul » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:34 pm

teknix wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
teknix wrote:Meditation is just clearing your mind, the rest is internal alchemy.


This statment is precisely why one should not learn meditation from the internet. This is a contrived an incorrect way of meditation that will not lead you to liberation.


Semantics, again you pursue the differences. Tell me what you actually know and have experienced or even realized that I may judge you in the same manner as you ASSUME to judge me. I will have more to go on though, because I will use questions and demand jakugo.


Mr. G's actually right, though.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:35 pm

Jikan wrote:When you insist on going your own way and avoiding a teacher, you are putting a deluded person in charge of your development: yourself.

Would you give yourself a dental filling? A colonoscopy? No: you'd trust a competent person for that. Similarly for Buddhist practice.

For the OP, there are particular challenges that need to be addressed. But as a general rule, it's much better to practice with others and with a capable teacher if you want to get some results.


Then there is a risk that the teacher is no teacher at all, but a conman instead. Some do benefit greatly from teachers, don't get me wrong, but it is not the teacher doing the doing for you, only you.

Some teachers are vampires and demand tribute and consider themself special, then indoctrinate others into that same belief system, all the while it is being reinforced by the others that have already been indoctrinated. You have to have a seeker mentality even when using a teach if you want to achieve liberation, which I think you guys are referring to "awakening" when you say liberation, and not enlightenment.
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby Mr. G » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:49 pm

teknix wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
teknix wrote:Meditation is just clearing your mind, the rest is internal alchemy.


This statment is precisely why one should not learn meditation from the internet. This is a contrived an incorrect way of meditation that will not lead you to liberation.


Semantics, again you pursue the differences. Tell me what you actually know and have experienced or even realized that I may judge you in the same manner as you ASSUME to judge me. I will have more to go on though, because I will use questions and demand jakugo.


Listen, if one wants to learn Chan correctly, one must receive the proper instruction from a teacher.
If one wants to learn Vajrayana, Tendai, Shingon or Dzogchen correctly, one must receive the proper instruction from a teacher.
If one wants to learn Theravada correctly, one must receive the proper instruction from a teacher.

And in all these instances, until one has a mature practice and understands how to gauge their practice by themselves, one needs a teacher to ensure one is meditating correctly.

The exception is a Pratyekabuddha. If that's the path you think you're on, well good luck with that then.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:55 pm

"twofold" emptiness seems to be the biggest hazard when going at it solo, it is best to leave the second part of emptiness for last imo. Which Is why I think Arhats spawn from contemplating emptiness beyond emptiness without completely ralizing the rest of what it apply's too. Namely Metta and Loving Kindness, which is a center in your chest, described throughout many religions.

You break awareness free with just emptiness and finding awareness, finding the center of your mind where yin may meet yang. I find it beneficial when considering this to understand how the left and right hemispheres of the brain work. The right hemisphere is controlling the left side of the body, it stems creativity. So like daydreaming and imagining can help to acknowledge that hemisphere. Then at the same time you must also acknowledge the left hemisphere which is logic, like math and calculations, you bring the center from each hemisphere to combine in the very center of the brain. Then you can feel the point from which awareness was "residing". Next comes metta or loving kindness. Which is a functional point within you that awareness may go to once released.

There is no difference in this process throughout any tradition that is relevant, it is what one must do to realize the spiritual body. However it is done, whatever process or procedure, that is what is done.

To discover that which exists within is your inherent right. It is not something anyone should try to sell you.
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Re: Finding a teacher when you dislike interaction

Postby teknix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:00 pm

The Flower of Life is said to stimulate both hemispheres.

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