2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

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Luke
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2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Luke » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:54 am

Hello fellow Kagyupa,

It's inevitable that we will have people who follow Trinley Thaye Dorje and people who follow Ogyen Trinley Dorje in this forum. Personally, I follow Trinley Thaye Dorje because this is what my sangha does. However, I know that many people follow the other Karmapa.

Anyway, I think it's important to have a statement of friendship between those who follow the different Karmapas. The controversy has already been discussed in great detail in other forums. Those who have great faith in one of the Karmapas will probably not change their opinions.

I hope that the followers of both Karmapas will not be unkind to one another here. Saying unkind things because of this controversy would not be in the spirit of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism and would most likely get in the way of our spiritual development.

We all seek to follow the Kagyu path as it was passed down by Tilopa and Gampopa. Living in peace with each other seems like the best way to do this.

Kind regards,

Luke

Ngawang Drolma
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:03 am

Thanks very much Luke, for this important reminder. :namaste:

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retrofuturist
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:09 am

Greetings,

Hostility is not cool... hostility is a manifestation of the flames of greed, aversion and delusion.

So don't be hostile, burning with these flames - be cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:23 am

8-) 8-)

Dazzle
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Dazzle » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:36 am

Hi Luke,

I have been a student in the lineage of HH 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje for many years (and I took Refuge with the 16th Karmapa) My own website is dedicated to his long life as well as to the long life of HH Dalai Lama who,amongst others, officially approved his recognition .The two are close friends.

It is, therefore, unavoidable that any links or references to teachings that I have given, or might give, would be from teachers and centres under the direction of the Karmapa I follow myself.

I certainly feel no hostility towards you or any other student of Trinley Thai Dorje and most definately have no intention of being unkind to anyone at all in this forum.

With kind wishes to you,

Dazzle

thornbush
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby thornbush » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:59 am

Let's just say that with 2 Karmapas....one gets 2 mirrors: to doubly reflect on our own selves and doubly increase practice. :thumbsup:

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Jechbi
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Jechbi » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:22 am

flag.gif
flag.gif (5.27 KiB) Viewed 3443 times

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Luke
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Luke » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:20 pm

Dazzle wrote: I took Refuge with the 16th Karmapa

Awesome! If you have any stories about meeting the 16th Karmapa, I'd love hear them sometime.

Dazzle wrote: It is, therefore, unavoidable that any links or references to teachings that I have given, or might give, would be from teachers and centres under the direction of the Karmapa I follow myself.

No problem. I value good teachings from any high quality source.

Dazzle wrote:I certainly feel no hostility towards you or any other student of Trinley Thaye Dorje and most definately have no intention of being unkind to anyone at all in this forum.

Okay, cool. *Shakes Dazzle's hand*

At the very least, both Karmapas are lamas who have dedicated their lives to the study and teaching of Dharma.

irishbuddhist
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby irishbuddhist » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Maybe you shouldnt just follow this "karmapa" because it is what your sangha does?

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Mr. G
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:47 pm

irishbuddhist wrote:Maybe you shouldnt just follow this "karmapa" because it is what your sangha does?


HI irish,

You've just revived a 2+ year old thread. Is there something specific you'd like to address? Everyone here is already well versed on this issue. We just choose not to engage in endless debate not because we are ignorant of the issue, but because it is not conducive to one's Dharma practice.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:42 am

Three Karmapas viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6738#p80223 may all have long life and benefit countless beings through their practice!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

YesheDron'May
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby YesheDron'May » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:26 pm

I keep reading all these threads about the 2 karmapas and still no one has answered my question . Which is....
Which Karmapa did the Chinese appoint ? or chose ? All direct answers appreciated . Yeshe

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:59 pm

Your question was answered here viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6738&start=20#p82554 you didn't bother reading it?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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conebeckham
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:26 pm

Can we get a "hitting head against brick wall" smilie?? This would be a perfect opportunity for one, eh? :shrug:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Norwegian
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Norwegian » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:30 pm

conebeckham, since that smilie does not exist here, let me introduce you to an alternative; the Internet standard:
Image
The Picard Facepalm.

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conebeckham
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:43 pm

Perfect! :smile: :anjali:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:48 pm

What about this one?
Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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conebeckham
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:44 pm

Perfect!
:woohoo:
We should have it added to the collection!

Too funny, Greg....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

rai
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby rai » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:44 pm

Luke wrote:Hello fellow Kagyupa,

It's inevitable that we will have people who follow Trinley Thaye Dorje and people who follow Ogyen Trinley Dorje in this forum. Personally, I follow Trinley Thaye Dorje because this is what my sangha does. However, I know that many people follow the other Karmapa.

Anyway, I think it's important to have a statement of friendship between those who follow the different Karmapas. The controversy has already been discussed in great detail in other forums. Those who have great faith in one of the Karmapas will probably not change their opinions.

I hope that the followers of both Karmapas will not be unkind to one another here. Saying unkind things because of this controversy would not be in the spirit of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism and would most likely get in the way of our spiritual development.

We all seek to follow the Kagyu path as it was passed down by Tilopa and Gampopa. Living in peace with each other seems like the best way to do this.

Kind regards,

Luke


:group:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:38 am

thornbush wrote:Let's just say that with 2 Karmapas....one gets 2 mirrors: to doubly reflect on our own selves and doubly increase practice. :thumbsup:


We certainly ought to avoid hostility, which is only damaging to the Kagyu lineage as a whole. But there is no reason to accept two Karmapas. Take this guy Dawa Sangpo, an obvious charlatan, or any fake guru claiming to be Karmapa. They are not Karmapa, and no sensible person would say they are Karmapa.

Similarly, though Thinley Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Thinley Dorje both have far more convincing grounds for saying they are Karmapa than Dawa Sangpo, one of them is not Karmapa.

It is not even right to pretend they are both Karmapas as an expedient to Buddhahood. As Shantideva says at 6.116-117,

Since they are both means of winning buddhahood
We say that beings are the same as buddhas
Even though they are not equal
In the boundless ocean of buddhas' qualities.
Yet even if a tiny fraction of those qualities
Were found contained in a certain being's heart
The three worlds made in offerings to them
Would not be enough to honour them.

So I say one is Karmapa, one is not. Perhaps I do not even know which one it is, though I think if one looks in an honest and straightforward way, one can easily see. But there is no reason for hostility on any side.

However, sometimes the truth is difficult to accept, so it is inevitable that sometimes, when one tries to uphold the truth, people will get upset. The thing to do is not to rub it in their faces if they're not ready for the truth. I would avoid doing that, but I would never say there are two Karmapas, which would be a deception.


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