Dzogchen.

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Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:42 am

WHAT IS DZOGCHEN?

Dzogchen is a Tibetan word that means Great Perfection. On the outer level it refers to a method of meditative practice that enables us to recognize our true nature. Ultimately, great perfection is that very nature: the natural, primordially pure nature of mind.

Here, our ultimate nature is understood as pure, primordial, naturally-arising timeless awareness. Although this intrinsic awareness, called rigpa in Tibetan, has no form, shape or color, it is capable of perceiving, experiencing or reflecting all the forms of phenomenal existence. Though it reflects the forms, the experiences, the good and bad feelings of everyday life, this pure intrinsic awareness of rigpa--which is our true nature--remains unstained and unaffected by them. Thus it is said that one's nature is like a mirror: it naturally reflects all that arises with complete openness, but the mirror remains unaffected by these reflections. :buddha1:

The method of practice of the Great Perfection is designed to awaken us, to instigate a direct recognition of this pure, unstained nature--who we really are. It is a practice that is grounded in compassion and loving-kindness, bodhicitta in Tibetan. Compassion is both the motivation for embarking on the journey, and the natural, spontaneous expression of the awakened mind. In this way the Great Perfection is the union of perfect wisdom (the recognition of our true nature) and perfect compassion (the spontaneous activity that heals the suffering of ourselves and others.)

What prevents us from already being awakened is ordinary conceptual thinking, which is rooted in the obscuring emotions of desire, aversion, anger, self-grasping, and the misunderstanding of the way everything arises merely as the momentary result of ephemeral causes and conditions. These mental habit-formations obscure the truth that is so close that we can not see it.

The meditation practice of the Great Perfection is specifically designed to break up these obscuring mental habits of mind; at that moment what is revealed is what is really there: the pure mirror-like nature of intrinsic awareness, uncontaminated by the desire, aversion and frustration of conceptual thinking. In meditation we just relax and rest in that true nature. In this unlimited, sky-like mental space we can observe how thoughts spontaneously arise, abide, and disappear; we see that the exact same thoughts that cause us so much anxiety, aggravation and animosity when we cling to them, have no more reality to them than does writing on water.

In meditation we discover that no effort is required to dissolve thoughts. We discover that the very same thoughts that cause all of our problems actually arise by themselves and dissolve by themselves; all we have to do is relax and let them be.

In meditation we relax and rest in this state of the simultaneous arising, abiding, and disappearing of all mental phenomena: we abide in the natural state of the mind. We rest in the space between thoughts.

Because we merely recognize what is already there it is called the meditation of non-meditation. Because obscuring conceptual thoughts automatically disappear with their own arising—we do not need to make them disappear—it is called effortless.

Because cultivating this experience of the simultaneous arising and disappearing of thoughts undermines the negative emotions, and the negative actions that arise from clinging to those emotions, it is like a unique medicine that can cure all of our ailments. Lama Surya Das.
Last edited by muni on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby justsit » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:36 pm

:bow: :bow: :bow:
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby malalu » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:23 pm

:thumbsup: Thanks, Muni!
The past is but a present memory or condition, the future but a present projection, and the present itself vanishes before it can be grasped.- Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:19 pm

Good luck with your practice! And then "practice be". Lets' go for it.

Thank you Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche La.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7BP-RDJspM
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby Mariusz » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:27 pm

Hi, it's my first post here:) I made notes about dzogchen mainly from Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790 at:

http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html

-meaby it would be useful, thanx
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:42 pm

:namaste: muni, i have read your interesting description of Dzogchen. 'practice be', in otherwords just be! yes. there is no practice in enlightenment, nothing to be except oneself, nothing to become.

we should not insist on anything, not even knowing ones own nature, (though everyone already knows this). in the dharma body's enlightenment there is not a single thing (yung chia). in prajna paramita theres nothing to it. no knowing oneself, no bhumis, no realization, no teaching to realize.

such is the state of suchness that all of these things can be used, but none of them are necessary, all these things are part of the delusion that we are unelightened.

when one becomes a buddha all things do not become enlightened, it is only that one recognises that all things have always been enlightened. there is no attainment and this no-attainment is itself perfect borderless attainment. in attaining nothing, paradoxically you attain everything. to go back to the beginning of all things... sunyata, is to embrace their end or consumation. who would have ever thought that in no realization whasoever is perfect attainment and transformation of the person who has this no realization.

having said that there is not a thing in prajnaparamita, i must emphasise that emptiness is all forms, just as they are. to embrace emptiness is to embrace all forms. therefore in embracing nothing at all one has perfectly embraced all dharmas and teachings.

i think your 'practice be', is pretty well spot on. but actually to 'practice' being is to miss the point. there is no practice. just be, or not be, whatever. whatever comes is it.

best wishes, White Lotus.

Be will do fine.
no being will do fine.
self will do just fine.
no self will do just fine.
whatever comes is it.
nothing to be,
nothing to attain.
maha prajna paramita.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:47 am

All thoughts like "practice be-joke" are food for Rigpa.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:55 pm

:namaste: Noble Muni,

is anyone capable of understanding this/awareness, is anyone not capable of understanding it. to say that practice is a joke is to see it as such. some do. i dont. but if ones awareness sees it as such, then so it is. at least to the one who sees it as such. to another however it may be taken very seriously, even after awakening.

judgent will not suffice.
non judgement is too plain.
snow falling on the hills.
seen is seen, heard is heard.
all is silence... what a crashing!


practice...
such as it is, it is a joke poked at the ego.
such as it is it is a serious pruning of the ego.


best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:20 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Noble Muni,

is anyone capable of understanding this/awareness, is anyone not capable of understanding it. to say that practice is a joke is to see it as such. some do. i dont. but if ones awareness sees it as such, then so it is. at least to the one who sees it as such. to another however it may be taken very seriously, even after awakening.

judgent will not suffice.
non judgement is too plain.
snow falling on the hills.
seen is seen, heard is heard.
all is silence... what a crashing!


practice...
such as it is, it is a joke poked at the ego.
such as it is it is a serious pruning of the ego.


best wishes, White Lotus.

To meet a precious one who introduces. The power of DEVOTION what sees the wise and compassionate as Dharmakaya.

Beyond intellectual understanding is intrinsic awareness.

Interconnection in outer world and own state of being; integration.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:42 pm

:namaste: Muni,

To meet a precious one who introduces. The power of DEVOTION what sees the wise and compassionate as Dharmakaya.

who sees also the ignorant and cruel as Dharmakaya, beyond attachment to appearances.
devotion to the triple gem within oneself.

Beyond intellectual understanding is intrinsic awareness.

intellectual understanding rests within intrinsic awareness and as such is even intrinsic awareness, since mind is one sameness. all things are not different from one another.

Interconnection in outer world and own state of being; integration.

there is no difference, call it oneness. or sameness (samata). not being attached to the words one, or the 'same'. it just is.

talk of impermanence and permanence, sameness and difference, enlightened and deluded are all complications. actually, it just is. you just are. i just am. (whether or not there is a self to boast about.) it is perfect just as it is. this is it!

best wishes, White Lotus.

empty yourself of all that is,
and there remains...
intrinsic awareness.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:47 pm

Intellectual investigation is like a bird flying from a ship over the ocean, trying to find the limit of the sky.

If we engage in mental fabrications, we will never find an end to them. No objects, no target, no representations or there is clinging. If we mix these fabrications into the view is this not called Dzogchen.

Concepts are putting appearances on one side and voidness on the other side and by that no way to see the inseparate of void and appaerances.
No object, no subject.

Beyond thought, which are seen as empty. Prajnaparamita: Mind does not exist, its expression is luminosity.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:25 pm

:namaste: Muni, yep, got to watch out for that bird! but ultimately there are no mental fabrications nor is there any escape from them. so why bother trying?

If we engage in mental fabrications, we will never find an end to them. No objects, no target, no representations or there is clinging. If we mix these fabrications into the view is this not called Dzogchen.

[cool... now i am reading something interesting here.]

i dont know much about Dzogchen, only that it is another fabrication, seeking to unravel the untruth that not everyone is enlightened. a delusion to unravel a bigger delusion. a thorn to remove a thorn.

in prajnaparamita there is no beginning, no end, no objects, no path, no target, no representation and nothing to cling to... but we are constantly deluding ourselves that we are deluded. there is no one to delude, nor is there anything called delusion. nor is there any kind of mind, or truth to seek. this is the highest truth this 'No truth' encompasses the infinite dharmas found in the universe. in being no thing, it is every thing.

best wishes, White Lotus.

travelling lightly,
keeping it simple,
the most profound
is just 'this'.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:34 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Muni, yep, got to watch out for that bird! but ultimately there are no mental fabrications nor is there any escape from them. so why bother trying?

If we engage in mental fabrications, we will never find an end to them. No objects, no target, no representations or there is clinging. If we mix these fabrications into the view is this not called Dzogchen.

[cool... now i am reading something interesting here.]

i dont know much about Dzogchen, only that it is another fabrication, seeking to unravel the untruth that not everyone is enlightened. a delusion to unravel a bigger delusion. a thorn to remove a thorn.

in prajnaparamita there is no beginning, no end, no objects, no path, no target, no representation and nothing to cling to... but we are constantly deluding ourselves that we are deluded. there is no one to delude, nor is there anything called delusion. nor is there any kind of mind, or truth to seek. this is the highest truth this 'No truth' encompasses the infinite dharmas found in the universe. in being no thing, it is every thing.

best wishes, White Lotus.

travelling lightly,
keeping it simple,
the most profound
is just 'this'.


Writing on water.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:10 pm

:namaste:

wu (no).

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:47 am

To try to understand what is unborn through the web of the conceptual mind is like a exhausted fly catched in a spider web trying to fly.

Even investigations and expressed in words' analyzes, there is freedom in uncompounded nature which is beyond investigation.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby White Lotus » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:58 pm

:namaste: Noble Muni,

To try to understand what is unborn through the web of the conceptual mind is like a exhausted fly catched in a spider web trying to fly.


the spider will not be hungry today, the web of concepts has done its work. the fly has a headache. tathata/things must be experienced. we are always trying to understand but there is no thing to understand... as muni said "not a single form arises". where is emptiness? it is not.

Even investigations and expressed in words' analyzes, there is freedom in uncompounded nature which is beyond investigation.


there is freedom,
there is no freedom,
there is both freedom and non freedom,
there is neither freedom nor non freedom.

be free to choose any position, yet attach to none.

it is beyond investigation,
it is within investigation,
it is both within and beyond investigation,
it is neither within nor beyond,
it is none of these things,
it is all of these things,
it is some of these things.

be free to take your pick, yet attach to no single position.
what you seek is what you find. what you want is what you seek for.

no views attached to, all views received.

is it written in water?
why not stone?
be free, why choose water over stone?
why choose stone over water?

why not ask the gold fish!

with respect, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby muni » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:00 pm

Inexpressible.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:49 pm

White Lotus wrote:i dont know much about Dzogchen, only that it is another fabrication, seeking to unravel the untruth that not everyone is enlightened. a delusion to unravel a bigger delusion. a thorn to remove a thorn.


This proves that you know even less about Dzogchen than you thought. Dzogchen is none other than the completely unfabricated Dharmakaya. It involves no conceptualization whatsoever, thus no ideas or views; it is unborn and unceasing, so nothing or no one to do any fabricating.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:58 pm

White Lotus wrote:is it written in water?
why not stone?
be free, why choose water over stone?
why choose stone over water?

why not ask the gold fish!

with respect, White Lotus.


This is just misunderstanding the import of the water analogy. This analogy is describing how the supposed movements of awareness, such as one's thoughts and experiences, when not grasped onto as seemingly real, self-liberate simultaneously with their arising, like writing in water... i.e. if you write a letter in water, it disappears just as you write it. It is a key to help a beginner understand how to relax in one's empty, luminous nature without getting carried away with the constant flux of impulses to fabricate concepts instead of allowing for naked, unadulterated, nondual wisdom as it is.
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Re: Dzogchen.

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:06 am

muni wrote:Inexpressible.


You did express it Muni :)

Muni wrote:To meet a precious one who introduces. The power of DEVOTION what sees the wise and compassionate as Dharmakaya.


Best,
Laura
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