the great vegetarian debate

[Virgo]

In the US, there is trend for yoga practicing Buddhists to eschew eating meat. Also amongst some younger Tibetan Buddhists there is a trend to stop eating meat -- which is ironic, because virtually all instructions of yantra and tummo recommend that one eat some meat, especially lamb and yak, which are quite warming.

Hey Loppon, what about elk and venison?

Thanks,
Kev

[Malcolm]

In the US, there is trend for yoga practicing Buddhists to eschew eating meat. Also amongst some younger Tibetan Buddhists there is a trend to stop eating meat -- which is ironic, because virtually all instructions of yantra and tummo recommend that one eat some meat, especially lamb and yak, which are quite warming.

Hey Loppon, what about elk and venison?

Thanks,
Kev

Both pretthy warming, as is bison.

[Virgo]

Both pretthy warming, as is bison.

Thank you.

I just had some elk stew and the meat seemed quite warming, though of course the stew was spiced quite well, the flavour of the meat was a warming one.

It's good to know as I don't eat lamb.

Warming is not what I need now though.
Anyway

Kevin

[kirtu]

http://www.grist.org/list/2012-01-12-american-beef-consumption-is-at-a-50-year-low

Dear Loppon,

Is that because of Eco-nomics?

Apparently not just because of economics. It appears to be a long term trend.

Kirt

[Virgo]

http://www.grist.org/list/2012-01-12-american-beef-consumption-is-at-a-50-year-low

Dear Loppon,

Is that because of Eco-nomics?

Apparently not just because of economics. It appears to be a long term trend.

Kirt

Excellent.

Kevin

[randomseb]

Sure, but what about a buddhist who uses mouthwash? All those millions of mouth germs that are killed.. so sad.



I'm moving towards cutting meat products from my diet, down to maybe once a week or so these days, so that's not bad

[Nemo]

It's taken months but I am finding that I can tolerate vegetarian meals if I take them with 500mg of carnitine. Without it I would get symptoms similar to low blood sugar and within days be craving sugar and running out of energy. I can actually go veg a few days a week.

[gregkavarnos]

I remember a feminist sociological account that goes along the same line, but looks at the overall evolution of patriarchal society.
The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams
http://www.caroljadams.com/spom.html

[Blue Garuda]

I used to think that male aggression and the need to compete was just the way men's hormones made them.

However, most of the aggression and fighting I see on the streets (and in driving) now seems to be from young women.

In my experience, hormones seem to play a far larger part in the desire to fight than food. I do know that chocolate can help with PMS, but not of any male equivalent.

On another foodie topic - cow's milk has now been identified as having great qaulities in muscle recovery after a workout etc. All this research, 'proving' that it is a 'super-food' and much better than protein shakes - and all they had to do was work out that 'whey protein' is a bit of a give-away to the origins of the stuff people have used for years.

Nemo - if the vegetarian food you eat leaves you feeling like you have low blood-sugar, it may just be a matter of increasing slow-release carbs, such as oats. In fact, you have to be really careful with many processed veggie foods as they can have huge amounts of sugar and fats such as palm oil. I find it helps if I knit my own muesli.

[edearl]

Eating animals and animal products (eggs and dairy) damage epithelial cells in blood vessels, which result in plaque buildup and closure of capilaries, veins and arteries--ultimately causing heart attacks. Meat and animal products also cause cancer, osteoporosis, and type 2 diabetes. (See documentary Forks over Knives and/or read Dr. McDougal's books. Eat vegan and grow healthy--a vegan diet reverses the effects of eating meat and animal products.

After eating vegan for only 2 months, I am off blood pressure meds and Tricor for high triglyceride, and my chelosterol is now abnormally low (still taking pravastatin but expect to be taken off soon). Moreover, my need for diabetes meds is less than before I began eating vegan.

AFAIK eating vegan is a miracle.

And, the grain saved to feed animals (approx. 8x by weight meat produced) can feed many starving people.

[Nemo]

The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.

[edearl]

The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.

Please give references.

[Nemo]

The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.

Please give references.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14326435
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4294825
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/ ... er/#indian

[PadmaVonSamba]

When I don't eat meat, I am not a meat eater. When I do eat meat, I am a meat eater.
"Vegetarian" and "non-vegetarian" are just labels used to assert the continuous existence of a self.
I used to be a librarian, but I never ate any books, although I have devoured a few novels.
.
.
.

[Nemo]

The monkey studies used in Forks over Knives bring the picture into sharper focus. Aflatoxin destroys liver cells. A low protein diet prevents enzyme production that detoxifies aflatoxin and the liver cannot replace cells lost to necrosis because of a lack of raw materials. Higher protein diets give more resistance to diseases like cancer. Cellular reproduction increases the chances of cancer cell production especially in the presence of environmental stress. A 5% protein diet is very unhealthy as your body cannot replace cells lost to stress or wear and tear and this leads to premature death. Campbell’s own studies indicate that by adding lysine to wheat protein it became cancer promoting as well. All the lysine did was make it a complete protein.

The only thing to take away from this is to get good protein in your diet. A diet high in protein promotes protein synthesis. Which is something both you and your cancer need to survive. Starving cancer by depriving yourself only increases cellular morbidity from other causes and shortens lifespan.

Since most vegetarians are subject to much more possible aflatoxin exposure they should be careful what they eat to prevent liver damage. Just like meat eaters should watch the saturated fat to prevent cardiac problems. I could go on if anyone actually cares about the misinformation in this movie. Maybe it is better to say that the health reasons to become a vegetarian are inconclusive. Become a vegetarian because you have a heart and love sentient beings. Isn’t that worth it even if it damaged your health a bit?

[edearl]

The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.

Please give references.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14326435
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4294825
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/ ... er/#indian

I agree that everyone should avoid aflatoxins, including aflatoxins that end up in cows milk when cows eat grain containing aflatoxins. However, these references do not appear to be an indictment against eating vegan.

The blog says that Campbell's study is interesting but inconclusive.

[Nemo]

His proclamations that a vegan diet is a cure for cancer are ridiculous though. If the science he chose himself refutes his own theories so completely one wonders at his competency. He is just another shyster with an axe to grind.

[edearl]

His proclamations that a vegan diet is a cure for cancer are ridiculous though. If the science he chose himself refutes his own theories so completely one wonders at his competency. He is just another shyster with an axe to grind.

One inconclusive study does not mean a vegan diet does not help one's body avoid and/or cure cancer, as demonstrated by many case histories (Ref: Documentaries Forks Over Knives and The Gerson Miracle which are currently on Netflix.)

See also:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048091/
the book "The China Study" cited in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Study

[Nemo]

Do you mean Campbell's book on it or the actual study. In the actual China Study participants heart disease was inversely related to meat intake. Those who ate the least meat, who were most likely the poorest of peasants, had more heart disease.

Some correlations in the study between food intakes and heart disease;

Plant protein has a correlation of 0.21 with heart disease (positive)
Non-fish animal protein has a correlation of 0.01 with heart disease (neutral)
Fish protein has a correlation of -0.11 with heart disease (inverse)
Meat intake has a correlation of -0.28 with heart disease (strongly inverse)
Fish intake has a correlation of -0.15 with heart disease (inverse)
Egg intake has a correlation of -0.13 with heart disease (inverse)
Wheat has a correlation of 0.67 with heart disease(The highest correlation of all.)

The study is only correlations. There is a correlation between ice cream intake and sunburns. Does ice cream cause sunburns?

Every piece of science used in the movie is so misleading and presented so inaccuratley as to be fraudulent. It's slickly produced propaganda. So far the correlations of health benfits from a veggie diet are negligible. You'll have to find another better reason to give up eating animals.

[Jikan]

You'll have to find another better reason to give up eating animals.

I don't eat animals because I object to factory farming on environmental & ethical grounds. I'm not convinced a vegetarian diet is more or less healthy, or even more or less palatable. It's certainly less convenient.