What are 84000 teachings?

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What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 pm

I have heard about this term 84000 teachings both in Mahayana and Theravada teachings?

What does it mean?

How do they calculate this number?

Is it like 1. Anapasatti Sutta 2. Prajna paramitha Sutta, 3. Xxxx, etc. ?

How many of them in Pali and how many of them in Sankrit? Other language?

Or 84000 teachings are just symbolic meaning? In this case why the number is 84000?
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby plwk » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:30 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .hekh.html
82,000 Teachings from the Buddha
I have received;
2,000 more from His Disciples;
Now, 84,000 are familiar to me.
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Astus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:31 pm

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:42 pm

Thank you.

The link provided by Astus, they dispute about dhammakhanda and Dhamma. I don't know what is te difference.

However, what is interesting is what Ananda said
He received 82000 teachings from Buddha, and 2000 teachings.

What is the list of that 84000?

How many of them Pali? How many of them Sanskrit?

Based on what I know Anapannasati is in Pali. I don't know whether you can find it in Sanskrit or not.

So, what are the list?

Can we trace of here, the authenticity of certain teachings just from this list?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:43 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:I have heard about this term 84000 teachings both in Mahayana and Theravada teachings?

What does it mean?

How do they calculate this number?

Is it like 1. Anapasatti Sutta 2. Prajna paramitha Sutta, 3. Xxxx, etc. ?

How many of them in Pali and how many of them in Sankrit? Other language?

Or 84000 teachings are just symbolic meaning? In this case why the number is 84000?


They are calculated from 21,000 afflictions ofdesire, 21,000 afflictions of hatred, 21,000 afflictions of ignorance and 21,000 combined afflictions = 84,000. Thus, there is a dharma teaching for each affliction.

Another way of calculating it is the eighty thousand dharma skandhas, mentioned in Abhidharma; 20 thousands dharma skandhas of sutra, abhidharma, vinaya, etc.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:They are calculated from 21,000 afflictions ofdesire, 21,000 afflictions of hatred, 21,000 afflictions of ignorance and 21,000 combined afflictions = 84,000. Thus, there is a dharma teaching for each affliction.


Ok. What are the title of each those teachings for ignorance for example?

They are 21000. That is a lot. What is the name for each 21000 items?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:49 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:They are calculated from 21,000 afflictions ofdesire, 21,000 afflictions of hatred, 21,000 afflictions of ignorance and 21,000 combined afflictions = 84,000. Thus, there is a dharma teaching for each affliction.


Ok. What are the title of each those teachings for ignorance for example?

They are 21000. That is a lot. What is the name for each 21000 items?


Sutra for anger, vinaya for desire, abhidharma for ignorance, and so on.

But there isn't 84,000 names of dharma teachings for 84,000 individually named afflictions.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:51 pm

Then what is the actual meaning of this 21000?

21000 techniques to handle ignorance?

21000 types of ignorance?

21000 way we get ignorance?

Or what?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:53 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Then what is the actual meaning of this 21000?

21000 techniques to handle ignorance?

21000 types of ignorance?

21000 way we get ignorance?

Or what?


Originally, it was a number enunciated by Ananda. It is a way of saying, for every problem there is a solution. It is just a convention. In reality, afflictions are innumerable, and so are dharma teachings.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:01 pm

I think Ananda must have meaning buy saying 82000 from Buddha.

Another 2000 he received it from his colleagues.

In Vajrayana context For example, the scholars say tantric teachings are inside this 84000 teachings.

But Theravada said there is no such thing. Buddha doesn't teach tantra.

So, if they claimed so, they themselves must have the complete 84000 teachings all must be in Pali.

If in Pali, they only have 5000 it means many teachings are missing.

This is a source of gray area and dispute.

I dont think Ananda will say 84000 as many many teachings. He can use as many Gangga sands or other fancy term.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:08 pm

You are on your own from here on out.

As I said, it is a convention.

DarwidHalim wrote:I think Ananda must have meaning buy saying 82000 from Buddha.

Another 2000 he received it from his colleagues.

In Vajrayana context For example, the scholars say tantric teachings are inside this 84000 teachings.

But Theravada said there is no such thing. Buddha doesn't teach tantra.

So, if they claimed so, they themselves must have the complete 84000 teachings all must be in Pali.

If in Pali, they only have 5000 it means many teachings are missing.

This is a source of gray area and dispute.

I dont think Ananda will say 84000 as many many teachings. He can use as many Gangga sands or other fancy term.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:20 pm

This is a quick summarized from Wikipedia

Sutta pitaka:
Dighka Nikaya 34 sutras
Majjhima Nikaya 152
Samyutta Nikaya 2889, according to commentaries it is 7762
Anguttara Nikaya 9565
Khuddeka Nikaya 15 (according to Thai), 17 (srilanka), 18 (Burmese)

Total : let's use higher number 34 + 152 + 7762 + 9565 + 18 = 17531 (Pali tradition)

Vinaya Pitaka
Both Pali and Sankrit can be said less than 50 (upper bound according to Wiki)

Abhidhamma
Total 7
Dhammasangani (-saṅgaṇi or -saṅgaṇī)
Vibhanga (vibhaṅga)
Dhatukatha (dhātukathā)
Puggalapannatti (-paññatti)
Kathavatthu (kathā-)
Yamaka
Patthana (paţţhāna)
Dhammasangani

For all, the total is only less than 18000. This one we can say Pali tradition.

18000 vs 84000 is really huge. I think it is super hyperbolic.

I have no idea how many Sankrit text both Mahayana and Vajrayana. If we roughly know the number and just count, it will be quite interesting to see the total number.

I personally don't think human has 21000 or even until 84000 afflictions for example, even you list down anger, jealousy, etc., you won't get that much individual vocabulary for afflictions.

On the other hand, if this 84000 is actually the number of teachings or sutras, not just a metaphor number, the validity of Sankrit can be proved from here to be very certain.

If we see when Nalanda university was burn, the library took a few MONTHS.

Wikipedia.
he library of Nalanda, known as Dharma Gunj (Mountain of Truth) or Dharmagañja (Treasury of Truth), was the most renowned repository of Buddhist knowledge in the world at the time. Its collection was said to comprise hundreds of thousands of volumes, so extensive that it burned for months when set aflame by Turkish invaders. The library had three main buildings as high as nine stories tall, Ratnasagara (Sea of Jewels), Ratnodadhi (Ocean of Jewels), and Ratnarañjaka (Delighter of Jewels).[19][20]

From the calculation there are still around 84000-18000 = 66000 teachings. This number is a lot and it makes sense that you need until 3 main buildings with 9 stories tall.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby randomseb » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Seems to me that every time the sutras talk about what they mean as an massively incomprehensibly large number, they say 84000 (or I've seen 10,000, depending on the tradition) I would venture to say it just means "many many many!"

For example, in the Diamond Sutra (two different translations of the same passage.. one can't help but want to read these things in their original languages for more accuracy heh.. these are somewhat different!):

- "Subhuti, I remember the infinitely remote past before Dipankara Buddha. There were 84,000 myriads of multimillions of Buddhas and to all these I made offerings; "
- "Subhuti, in ancient times before I met Dipankara Buddha, I had made offerings to and had been attendant of all 84,000 million Buddhas."

Or different parts of the Lotus sutra:

- "Then 84,000 people of the household in the women's quarters were capable of upholding the Lotus Sutra."
- "Sakyamuni explained that it was caused by Fine Sound who wished to come with his retinue of 84,000 great bodhisattvas to make offerings to him and the Lotus Sutra. "

etc etc
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Astus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:56 pm

DarwidHalim,

You are looking for something that does not exist. I gave the link because the very first post by Ven. Gavesako explains this. "Dhammakkhandha" means simply "groups of teachings", like a stanza, or a sutta, however you like it. If you work really hard, you might come up with a unit that makes the Pali Canon (whichever version you use) to make 84000 such groups. But it's really pointless.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby Nosta » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:06 pm

In my humble opinion 84000 teachings is like saying "there is a lot of teachings".
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby plwk » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:13 pm

In my humble opinion 84000 teachings is like saying "there is a lot of teachings".

for lots and lots of sentient beings ..... especially stubborn and nut cases like plwk... :lol:
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:42 pm

Frankly speakin I don't know what does it mean by 84000 teachings.

I also thought it just mean a lot lot of teachings.

However, when I look into how Ananda said about this 84000 teachings, I really have a doubt about it.

If Ananda said I have received 84000 teeachings or Dhamma or dhammakhandas or whatever, I think it is ok to think it means a lot lot lot of stuff.

But what he said is he received 82000 + 2000, where 2000 are from his colleagues.

The way he say this things suggest or imply a specific amount, not just metaphor.

2000 is not a lot of number.

It Probably has a specific meaning. If we ask, what are the teachings that you just received from your colleagues? This may bring us to the answer whether another 82000 actually just mean a lot lot or actually it really means the number of Sutta he is going to announce.

I don't know.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby randomseb » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:30 am

DarwidHalim wrote:If Ananda said I have received 84000 teeachings or Dhamma or dhammakhandas or whatever, I think it is ok to think it means a lot lot lot of stuff.

But what he said is he received 82000 + 2000, where 2000 are from his colleagues.

The way he say this things suggest or imply a specific amount, not just metaphor.
.


Well, you could say "many uncountable teachings... plus 2000 more".. or you could just say "84,000 teachings, with the specification that 2000 came from the members of the sangha"

Dunno.. seems logical to me, because after Ananda's time, many many many more teachings were added, so if it was 84k in his time, it'd be significantly more by now.. but the expression remains 84000 teachings?
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby catmoon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:34 am

May it just means, that in a teaching career spanning some 50 years, the Buddha gave several teachings a day.
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Re: What are 84000 teachings?

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:00 am

Some people actually calculate that 84000 based on his years of living. His teaching career is about 45 years.

It is about 5 to 6 teachings per day.

Do you think it is possible?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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