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Do you believe in rebirth? - Page 9 - Dhamma Wheel

Do you believe in rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:14 am

Absolutely.
The reason that Ajahn Sumedho for example will not be drawn into issuing a definitive statement, and he is following Luang Por Chah here, is as he says he has dealings in a teaching capacity with both those who hold literalistic beliefs in post mortem punarbhava/punabhava and those who find it most inspiring as an illustration of moment to moment consciousness.
He sees it as his role to support both groups without favour.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:57 am

Greetings,

What's worth pointing out that what passes as rebirth doesn't need to be some variety "literal post-mortem conventional rebirth" or "moment-to-moment".

It can also refer to "I-making"... the arising of the erroneous perception of self.

Hence why the word "rebirth" is very imprecise... better to stick with clearer technical, non-loaded Pali terms... but which one?

Which word is the Pali word for "rebirth"
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5309

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Shonin
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Shonin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:37 am


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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:38 am

Last edited by Annapurna on Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:44 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Shonin
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Shonin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:48 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:54 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:56 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

Shonin
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Shonin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:16 am

I've heard your ideas before. I commented on how they sound i.e. seem or appear, to me, which is not necessarily accurate. Perhaps you could explain how you see things yourself.

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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:25 am

Don't be evasive, please.

What are 'my ideas 'that you have "heard before"?

Please quote me.

Otherwise, I think you are assuming things about me. Or interpreting them in ways only you can know.

Not me.

So...?
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:45 am

I think that the ball is in your court Anna...going right back to E Sangha days you have made repeated statements concerning Rebirth that sound as though you have conflated Rebirth as taught by the Buddha with Reincarnation as taught in your local Iskcon centre or Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre...ie a discrete entity acts and creates kamma . They then die and they are reborn as a discrete entity who inherits that Kamma.*
I have seen a number of people asking you to clarify your beliefs , including members of E Sangha who held a militant belief In literal Rebirth and who pointed out to you that you had misunderstood. I have seen you repeatedly refuse to acknowledge this and to insist that your understanding is correct..only for you to then demonstrate a week or a month or three months later that you actually accept the Vedantic view, rather than the Buddhist one.

* So is that what you believe ? That a discrete entity creates kamma, and then dies and the kamma passes over to another discrete entity ? If not please clarify. And I am afraid that simply serving up a lump of raw Sutta with no sign that you have understood it will not pass muster.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:49 am

Oh and by the way Anna as has been pointed out to you a dozen times or more disagreeing with someones position and saying so, and saying that they have not understood does not constitute an ad hom. That is another concept that you perhaps need to reflect on. Because you consistently misuse it.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Shonin
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Shonin » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:53 am

Annapurna,

I'm sorry, but I don't have time to spend on the forum archaeology required to prove a minor, tangential point. It was an accurate description of my *perception* of your views. However, you're right - and I've already admitted this - I may have misunderstood you. No offence was intended. If you wish to clarify this, all you need to do is give an outline of your views. If I have misrepresented you I will apologise.

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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:16 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:32 pm

Anna its you that is being evasive.
You consistently argue on this forum for a particular view of Rebirth, but when asked to clarify that view,( which strikes more than one person and includes people who have no previous history with you and no axe to grind,) as not being in line with Buddhadhamma you refuse to do so. However judging from past experience it will not stop you from propagating views that ring alarm bells...

A couple of times , including recently you have expressed reservations about Buddhadhamma .
You see I think thats honest. I think that your heart is actually with the Vedanta or one of the Mystic traditions....whether you know it or not. My evidence is the fact that you consistently voice views that are in line with those traditions.
I think your admiration for The Dalai Lama led you to what you think is Buddhadhamma, but it actually isnt. Its YOUR take on Buddhadhamma.
And at its heart is Reincarnation and achieving Oneness with all beings through a process of gradual purification of Karma.
And thats OK. Its a Way that has been followed by many saintly and sagacious beings throught history.
It just isnt Buddhadhamma.

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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:07 pm

Peter,

for me there is nothing to clarify. Really. Not being evasive either.

I feel there is no reason to explain myself or justify myself against your assumptions, as they are simply laughable.
I am a bit disappointed of you.

You continue to attack me personally and hope in this way you can shake my points.

So be it.

I am not going to engage with you any further on this.

It feels like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM


I wish you the best
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:38 pm

I thought it was worth a try Anna...but its deja vu again.
in fact ..plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

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Annapurna
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:59 pm

PS:
I don't accept your little gifts, Peter, so they're all staying with you. :anjali:



For all those who may have missed it:

My quotes about rebirth were from the Pali canon and not the Dalai Lama. With one exception, and he was of course not Adhamma.

I personally don't bash sects, I enjoy to see what they have in common, and don't study to find fault.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

PeterB
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:38 pm

Anna Anna Anna.....pointing out that someone has misunderstood something is not an attack.
Over the years,,and I do mean years a whole raft of people have pointed out that you demonstrate when you engage in debate about Rebirth that you conflate it with Reincarnation , that you think that people are punished for misdeeds in past births for example..otherwise "they" have " got away with it". You clearly think that person A) creates kamma and dies ,and is then reborn as person B) who somehow inherits person A's kamma. This is a travesty of the Buddhas teaching.
This and other errors have been pointed out gently ( by me and others ) and confrontationally ( by Namdrol and others ) and no one has been able to any degree to cause you to think whether you may have got it wrong. And you have. Badly.
That is not an attack. Its just a fact.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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