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 Post subject: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 am 
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A misconception about zazen is that zazen is meditation. In meditation, such as in the theravadin and Tibetan tradition, one contemplates shapes, and visualizations ect.

But in zazen, we aren't doing such things. Steadying the mind on the breath in the tanden region, we empty our mind of it's contents and relax into glimpsing our original face.

Now that sounds like a far cry from all these fantastical meditative techniques marketed by other traditions. Surely zazen is the most expedient path to self realization.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:21 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
But in zazen, we aren't doing such things. Steadying the mind on the breath in the tanden region, we empty our mind of it's contents and relax into glimpsing our original face.


That is a pretty contrived meditation, from this Tibetan Buddhist's POV.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:26 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
....we empty our mind of it's contents ....


Please never ever do this kind of meditation. Besides this is not zazen, this meditation is dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:15 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
... we empty our mind of it's contents ...

Who empties? And who has "mind"? Did you ever find "mind"? There is no-thing.

Beatzen wrote:
and relax into glimpsing our original face.

Fantasy. Contrivance.

Quote:
If mind is not produced, what need is there for cross-legged sitting dhyana?

The Bodhidharma Anthology


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:26 am 
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:shrug:
I do not choose to do zazen as my "practice".
Here's my personal view.
If a tock a rock...lets say it weighed 10kg, and placed it on a mat....it's "mind" would be totally empty.
All right, it doesn't have a "mind" then, it's just a dumb rock.
But it's "nature" is totally empty.
So how long, just sitting there with an empty "nature" would it take that rock before it became a 10kg Buddha?
Obviously, it wouldn't.
Now, we have a sentient being, a human. This human sentient being sits on a mat in zazen and counts his or her breaths.
After some time there "mind" is totally "empty".
My question is, if that sentient human being keeps sitting on that mat with a totally empty "mind", how is that sentient being any different from that rock?
And if that rock doesn't become a Buddha, then why would that sentient human being ever become a Buddha either?
O.K. I understand why a beginner, perhaps unable to concentrate and with a mind racing about wildly, might be taught to do zazen to develop stillness and relax their mind. I can even acknowledge the value of a period of zazen for a more advanced practitioner to calm and quiet his or her mind in order to go on to other practices after he or she got into that calm an peaceful stillness state.
So my real question to those who do zazen repeatedly or every day is: so o.k., now you and the rock are the same.
But YOU are a sentient being, not a rock, So, for you, What is Next?
Zazen has it's purposes, but there is a time to go on to the next step. That's really all I am saying.
Once again, this is only my personal opinion, and others may disagree (and very likely will).

Which leads me to this poem I herad somewhere:

A monk sits in meditation on a mat, and will not lie down.
Or a corpse lies on the floor and can not sit up.
Tell me then, why are these both not mindless corpses?
:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:43 am 
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Quiet Heart wrote:
But YOU are a sentient being, not a rock, So, for you, What is Next?

Well you won't ask this while sitting zazen and in a short aftermath while still being enough conditioned by it. So you just must not stop sitting zazen :smile:


Quiet Heart wrote:
A monk sits in meditation on a mat, and will not lie down.
Or a corpse lies on the floor and can not sit up.
Tell me then, why are these both not mindless corpses?
:smile:

Both are mindless corpses but ...
Quote:
There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


But hey. Zazen may be a good tool to re-establish mindfulness when you have lost it and cannot re-establish it in another way.

But beware
Quote:
'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:01 am 
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The avatamsaka sutra instructs to empty the mind of discursive thought. How is this dangerous. Do you even practice zazen?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:06 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
... we empty our mind of it's contents ...

Who empties? And who has "mind"? Did you ever find "mind"? There is no-thing.

Beatzen wrote:
and relax into glimpsing our original face.

Fantasy. Contrivance.

Quote:
If mind is not produced, what need is there for cross-legged sitting dhyana?

The Bodhidharma Anthology


I don't think it's fantasy. I think your mind is inhibited by the five hinderances, particularly of doubt.

I think it's ironic that ritualists like Tibetan buddhists criticize anything about zazen as contrived.

There might not be a self who empties, but we can be aware of an emptying. Read tenzin palmo on the nature of mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:14 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
I don't think it's fantasy. I think your mind is inhibited by the five hinderances, particularly of doubt.

I think it's ironic that ritualists like Tibetan buddhists criticize anything about zazen as contrived.

There might not be a self who empties, but we can be aware of an emptying. Read tenzin palmo on the nature of mind.

"your mind", "my mind" ..."you", "I" ... "you", "mine" "yours"

No practice - Great Doubt!


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:18 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
The avatamsaka sutra instructs to empty the mind of discursive thought. How is this dangerous. Do you even practice zazen?


How do you empty the mind of discursive thought?

If thought appears, what do you do?

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:51 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
But in zazen, we aren't doing such things. Steadying the mind on the breath in the tanden region, we empty our mind of it's contents and relax into glimpsing our original face.


Where is this kind of seated meditation from? What text, which teacher?
Sitting down, focusing on breath, in the tanden region, emptying the mind of its contents, relaxing, glimpsing the original face.

Well, that's quite a complicated and restrictive practice with several steps to go through, not to mention understanding many foreign and obscure concepts. No doubt this is a possible form of seated meditation, but it's hardly uncontrived or unique/universal in Zen.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:42 pm 
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I think "zazen" is a word that has different meanings in the different Japanese schools.

EDIT: Let me restate that; it's two words za (坐) "to sit" http://www.saiga-jp.com/cgi-bin/dic.cgi ... 3973_68085
and zen (禅) "to meditate" http://www.saiga-jp.com/cgi-bin/dic.cgi ... 3973_68085 (though here they've shown the meaning as "zen (buddhism)"!)

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Last edited by Seishin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Beatzen wrote:
A misconception about zazen is that zazen is meditation. In meditation, such as in the theravadin and Tibetan tradition, one contemplates shapes, and visualizations ect.

But in zazen, we aren't doing such things. Steadying the mind on the breath in the tanden region, we empty our mind of it's contents and relax into glimpsing our original face.

Now that sounds like a far cry from all these fantastical meditative techniques marketed by other traditions. Surely zazen is the most expedient path to self realization.



Your question presupposes that your definition of zazen is more beneficial in the process of enlightenment than your definition of Theravadin and Tibetan meditation.

Before we get to any attempts at answers, why do you make such presupposition? We cannot start there, even on your own definitions and understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Uncontrived: not by design or artifice; unforced and impromptu....unstudied spontaneous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hhFiSrs ... re=related

"Surrender. Embrace emptiness and the whole universe is yours".

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Zen is less ritualized than Tibetan traditions? I don't think this is at all true "on the ground". Maybe in some US and European nouveau-Zen centers, but certainly not in Japan.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Beatzen wrote:
I think it's ironic that ritualists like Tibetan buddhists criticize anything about zazen as contrived.


If you think you can sum Tibetan Buddhism up as ritualist, it means you have not understood anything at all about Tibetan Buddhism.

N

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:21 am 
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Like views of boxes wrapped in paper, the papers with many colors can for example looking childish, others with black and gold can look of great or right value while inside all boxes is locked air.

Tricky mind views my dear.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Us ritualists are a varied lot. In my case, Buddhism began with contact with Zen, and a complete misunderstanding of it. This led to some reading and meditation and wound up in the Gelug tradition. Not all Gelugs are completely comfortable with the ritualistic side of things. I just do a little, based on the idea that well, if it worked that well for the Dalai Lama, and so many other lamas, there must be something at the core of these practices, something effective. And there does in fact seem to be more going on in the rituals than mere repetitious behaviour.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:41 pm 
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In many Zen centres they carefully explain to you how to sit, how to walk, how to eat, how to bow, etc. And when it comes to what to do actually when you're supposed to meditate, that is, what to do with the mind, they can only say a few words like "just let it go", "only don't know", and such. I call this super-ritualistic and quite uninformative.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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 Post subject: Re: Uncontrived
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:32 am 
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This thread is contrived.


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