Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

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Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:59 am

There is a dispute that according to Theravada tradition, Buddha Sakyamuni starts from zero in the sense that he has not achieved his buddhahood before he was "born" in India.

Mahayana on the other hand see that Buddha Sakyamuni has achieved enlightenment long time ago before he was "born" in India. This is explain in Lotus Sutra.

Which one is true? We cannot have 2 views regarding the truth.

The following link tell you who Buddha Sakyamuni is before he was born in India straight from Pali Canon itself.
http://buddhasutra.com/files/mahapadana_sutta.htm

An interesting fact.
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby Will » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:11 am

If I recall, Gautama did not start from zero. Both Mahayana & Theravada say he was a bodhisatta before becoming Buddha. Bodhisattva status is hardly that of a zero worldling type.
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:25 am

The notion of boddhisattva and Buddha, I think is also not clear.

Before Buddha Sakyamuni was born in India, is he already a perfect Buddha or just a bodhisattva who is perfecting his buddhahood on earth?

The dispute can be view from this point of view as well.

And the link from Pali sutta above and Lotus sutra can be compared to have a solid conclusion.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby Huifeng » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:28 am

DarwidHalim wrote:There is a dispute that according to Theravada tradition, Buddha Sakyamuni starts from zero in the sense that he has not achieved his buddhahood before he was "born" in India.

Mahayana on the other hand see that Buddha Sakyamuni has achieved enlightenment long time ago before he was "born" in India. This is explain in Lotus Sutra.

Which one is true? We cannot have 2 views regarding the truth.

The following link tell you who Buddha Sakyamuni is before he was born in India straight from Pali Canon itself.
http://buddhasutra.com/files/mahapadana_sutta.htm

An interesting fact.


Depends on which "Mahayana" that one is talking about.
It is not a universal view across the board.

Moreover, this view was first from the Mahasamghika,
before the appearance of the Mahayana.

And, the link for the Mahapadana is usually considered
as a fairly late text.

Let's sort out the historical stuff before working out who
is right or wrong, or who influenced who. :)

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:45 am

This is actually what really confuse me because there are some texts in Pali considered original, some texts are not original.

They can make a demarkation from here, it is considered old and authentic. From here it is considered late and not authentic.

However, if we regards this Pali text as authentic, we actually can see both of them are quite concurrance and accept that Buddha Sakhaymuni is already a full perfected buddha before he was born on earth.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby randomseb » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:12 pm

If he was "already enlightened", why did he spend so much time searching, then attaining realization under the bhodi tree? I think the point is not that he was already "awakened", but rather that the "potential" was there, if he only took the time to "realize" it, or in other words that the "buddha-nature" is inherent to all?
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby daelm » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:26 pm

Seb wrote:If he was "already enlightened", why did he spend so much time searching, then attaining realization under the bhodi tree? I think the point is not that he was already "awakened", but rather that the "potential" was there, if he only took the time to "realize" it, or in other words that the "buddha-nature" is inherent to all?



according to the Mahayana (current, mainstream - hat-tip to Huifeng), the struggle, achievement and realization and parinirvana is a teaching display. this does render it meaningless. it makes it more profound.



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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby randomseb » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:58 am

daelm wrote:according to the Mahayana (current, mainstream - hat-tip to Huifeng), the struggle, achievement and realization and parinirvana is a teaching display.
d


Ahh that is interesting.. I guess that implies a series of teachings based with the years spent following the wrong path, before the realization of the dharma?
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:18 am

Please read the following link:
http://buddhasutra.com/files/mahapadana_sutta.htm

Even Pali sutta itself acknowledge that Buddha has reached enlightenment.
Both schools agree that Buddha Sidharta has become a Buddha since donkey years before he manifest himself in India.

One thing which is very confusing from Theravada tradition is some of them say Buddha has not reached enlightenment, but their own sutta tell them, Buddha has reached enlightenment. May be this group of people haven't read the above sutta, so they have that mindset.

Mahapadana Sutta - PALI SUTTA
The Great Discourse on the Lineage
Thus have I heard. Once the Lord was staying at Savatthi, in Anathapindika’s park in the Jeta Grove, in the Kareri hutment. And among a number of monks who had gathered together after their meal, after the alms-round, sitting in the Kareri pavilion, there arose a serious discussion on former lives, as they said, "This is how it was in a former life," or "That is how it was."

And the Lord, with purified divine-ear faculty surpassing the powers of humans, heard what they were talking about. Getting up from his seat, he went to the Kareri pavilion, sat down on the prepared seat, and said, "Monks, what was your conversation as you sat together? What discussion did I interrupt?" and they told him.

[...]

"And so it is, monks, that by his penetration of the Fundamentals of Dhamma, the Tathágata remembers the past Buddhas who have attained final Nibbána, cutting through multiplicity, blazing a trail, have exhausted the round, have passed by all suffering; he recalls their births, their names, their clan, their life span, their twin disciples, their assemblies of disciples: "These Blessed Lords were born Thus, were called thus, thus was their clan, thus was their morality, their Dhamma, their wisdom, their dwelling, thus was their liberation.""

Thus the Lord spoke, and the monks, delighted, rejoiced at his words.

Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Quote excessively long especially when the source was given in the post
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby ground » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:05 am

DarwidHalim wrote:There is a dispute that according to Theravada tradition, Buddha Sakyamuni starts from zero in the sense that he has not achieved his buddhahood before he was "born" in India.

Mahayana on the other hand see that Buddha Sakyamuni has achieved enlightenment long time ago before he was "born" in India. This is explain in Lotus Sutra.

Which one is true? We cannot have 2 views regarding the truth.

None is true. :smile:
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby randomseb » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:41 am

TMingyur wrote:None is true. :smile:


From what I understand, the important thing is working within oneself, not worrying about doctrine (direct experience vs scriptural knowledge), so that's where I would stand too, I think
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:57 pm

But without some of the doctrine to guide you, how will you do that? ;)
We've been working without the doctrine for a long time now and are yet unenlightened.
It's important, I believe, to give the benefit of the doubt to a particular school and follow its teachings. The fruit of the practice will always be beyond the doctrine. The doctrine is made of illusions to cut through the main illusion. I'm not saying this to look poetic or as a catchy assertion. The fruit of the practice will be beyond conceptuality, paramartha satya. All the Buddhadharma pertains to loka samvriti satya, relative truth. But these illusions are not lies, untrue. They are functional in the sense that they will lead you to eliminate all aflictions (unlike illusions who aren't even relatively true, like saying that hares have horns). In the end it's better to pick a system and follow it the best one can.
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby Jikan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:41 pm

And then there are the Jataka tales...
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby cooran » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:07 am

Hello Jikan,

The Jatakas verses are part of the Sutta Pitaka (The Khuddaka Nikaya) of the Pali Canon ...... the Jataka Stories are not BuddhaVacana. Jatakas were touched on in a discussion elsewhere, and Jim Anderson (Pali Scholar) supplied the following information there:

"The Jataka (jaataka.m) is part of the Tipitaka and occupies two volumes in print. It consists of verses uttered by the Buddha and would have been recited at the great rehearsals. The Jataka commentary (jaataka.t.thakathaa) which contains the stories that go with the verses take up 10 volumes in a Thai edition. It is traditionally ascribed to Buddhaghosa (as translator & editor). All the verses in the Jataka are also included in the Jataka commentary.

.... some people are under the impression that the Jataka stories are part of the Tipitaka but upon closer examination one will find that the stories in fact belong to the commentary. The Jataka proper is only made up of verses like in the Dhammapada."


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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:57 am

Besides Pali Sutta - Mahapadana Sutta, which acknowledge Siddharta has reached full enlightenment before his manifestation in India, We can also found it in Jataka.

According to some people, Jataka is divided into 2:
1. Jaataka.m
2. Jaataka.t.thakathaa

Does Jaataka.m also show additional information that Buddha has reached full enlightenment before?
Or
Only Jaataka.t.thakathaa that show additional information that Buddha has reached full enlightenment before?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby cooran » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:30 am

Hello DarwidHalim, all,

DarwidHalim said: sides Pali Sutta - Mahapadana Sutta, which acknowledge Siddharta has reached full enlightenment before his manifestation in India, We can also found it in Jataka.


No, it doesn’t. You are incorrect.

DN#14 - Mahapadana Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage mentions the previous Buddhas of our aeon and tells the story of the previous Buddha Vipassi. It is interesting mythology, but also notice that sections 2.17 - 2.22 describe his enlightenment. His story very closely parallels our Buddha's story and Vipassi's enlightenment comes about because he is able to formulate and penetrate Dependent Origination.
http://palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/tr ... neage.html

DarwidHalim - if you are going to make statements about what the Buddha said in a sutta, please include a link to that sutta so those not familiar with them have evidence to base an opinion on.

An additional article:
The Great Discourse on the Lineage – article by Leigh Brassington
http://www.leighb.com/lineage.htm

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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:25 am

Hi Cooran,

Before we discuss further, according to you who is Sakyamuni Buddha before he appeared in India?
1. Arhat?
2. Boddhisattva?
3. Buddha?
4. Or ignorant man?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Buddha Sakyamuni Birth from Pali perspective

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:15 pm

Dear Dawid,

Each version of the Dharma has it's own view regarding a number of issues ranging from: if the Buddha wa salready enlightened before appearing in this world, whether phenomena have an actual existing physical basis, whether the tahagatagarbha is valid or not, how many minds are there, are there beings that cannot be liberated/enlightened ever, ad nauseum...

The point is to find one that works ("clicks") for you and practice on the basis of their doctrine so that you can achieve enlightenment.

There may be 84,000 doors leading to enlightenment, but when you pass through one of them and become enlightened, then the other 83,399 won't really matter now will they?
:namaste:
PS Oh, before I forget. To pass through a door you need a key and guess who holds the key? That's right. The teacher. I may have said this to you before and I never tire of saying this to all "seekers": find yourself a good teacher and get to work. Death is only a breath away.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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