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Do you believe in rebirth? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

Do you believe in rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:55 am

Greetings Sunrise,

That's also compatible with how the term jati has been used in (non-Buddhist) Indian circles (i.e. identity, identification with x, association with x)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Aloka
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Aloka » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:58 am

Last edited by Aloka on Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:04 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:14 am

I am familiar with Buddhadasa's interpretation.

But, can you give me a sutta reference to support that when it is said that "birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled", that it only refers to "mental births"? I know you have given me this reference to Buddhadasa but if you could find a sutta, it would be nice.

I can give you this, from DN 22: ""And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."

Says nothing about the birth of "I am" specifically.

Also: Can you find a reference that says that an arahant does take another physical birth?

Also: Is not avijja, and the resulting upadana and all of that prerequisite conditions for jati? If, as in the arahant, avijja and so tanha and upadana are gone, how could they take another physical birth? Without avijja the chain of paticcasamuppada breaks down. What conditions are there for another birth to happen if the arahant has stopped the chain of dependent origination?

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:20 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:23 am

Well, your link up there seems to be dealing with talking about jati in the sense of physical births (into whatever caste), which is what I'm talking about too (minus the castes), so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Feel free to spell it out for me straight. :tongue:

I am aware that sometimes the exact same quotes are used in support of very different views, that's just one of those things that happens I guess.

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:30 am

Last edited by Sunrise on Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:34 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:45 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:05 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:19 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:17 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:30 pm


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:33 pm


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:06 pm

Okie dokie, Sunrise. And I agree, this is a discussion forum for discussing, no problem with that!

One last point I wanted to add but didn't because I was unable to find the sutta for reference, is that I recall it being said that one of the impossibilities for a stream-enterer is to take an eighth birth, the implication being that they become arahants on their seventh birth. I believe this qualifies as an example of "birth" used in a non-momentary sense, since if you do follow momentary rebirth, it follows that you think "birth" is happening all the time, whenever we self-identify with anything, right? Which is certainly going to happen more than seven times, probably within even one day or hour! (unless I misunderstand the implications of the moment-to-moment rebirth of "I am" thingie)

I don't think it could be rightly said, looking at the suttas, that every stream-enterer became an arahant within mere moments of reaching stream-entry. So in my mind, the reference seems more likely to birth in the typical sense, and if you would agree, I would then point out how it states that the stream enterer only has seven more of these births, meaning that after that, no more births in the typical physical sense either.

But then again I can't find the darn sutta so I might not remember right. Maybe someone else remembers. :thinking:

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby somo » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:14 am

this thread i believe in rebirth,my rating is about a million percentages. because i knew i had not mislead that someone never knew. because to have the unsure it can be drop any faith. if think that no rebirth. it mean that wrong view. :anjali:
*happiness=pain,h/p=1,mind=1,suffering=p*t(time of craving)*
*real happiness will not change to the pain later*
*h^max=p^max..p can solves by decreases..h*


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:21 am


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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:25 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:31 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:38 am

Its not a thought through position Retro, but it seems to me that inevitability and anicca are strange bedfellows.


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