the great vegetarian debate

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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:26 pm

Clueless Git wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Git,

You've definitely twisted the purpose .

Most 'umble apologies that was not my intention ..

I should have made the 'if' I started off with much larger to be clear that 'if' my understanding of purpose was wrong then the rest of what I had to say should be regarded as automaticaly irrelevant.


Git,

Your humility is apparent and appreciated, brother.
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby Virgo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:36 pm

An aside about the thrown out meat from supermarkets: generally, the meat will be thrown out with other trash so it will not be available. Also, if you ask, I doubt they will give it to you for fear of you getting sick (and the possibility of subsequent lawsuits). Generally meat will be discounted a day or two before it's expiration date has come, and then, if not bought with the discounted "Clearance" tick on it, thrown out. Hopefully, it won't get mixed in with fresh meat and ground up and sold as the next days chopped hamburger meat.

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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby KeithBC » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:24 am

catmoon wrote:It's not really denial that's happening, though it must surely appear to be so. What is really happening here is: I am pushing the logic of the subject as far and hard as I can to see if it breaks.

I think that you need to push the logic a little harder. If you do you will see that the necessary conditions for an animal to be slaughtered for food are (1) a person willing to do the slaughtering, and (2) one or more customers wishing to eat the meat. If you take away either of those conditions, the animal lives. Without the butcher, the customer has no meat to buy, and without the customer, the butcher has no source of income and no reason to kill the animal. Both are therefore contributing causes. The logic is sound.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby kirtu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:05 pm

Inge wrote:Hi.
Is it possible to practice vajrayana without partaking in meat offerings?


Hi!

Technically yes but in actuallity it is really not possible to not encounter meat offerings at some point if one takes Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments (certainly in Sakya and often in Nyingma). Usually one can get around this by touching the meat to the lips (any lama will probably be fine with this). As noted in the discussion people are in different places and some people are not ready to incorporate this practice.

However many lower tantra practices have veg tsok from the beginning.

And as noted HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has urged people to move to veg tsok (unless, as he mentioned in one teaching, Mahakala actually shows up in person).

Kirt
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:24 pm

kirtu wrote:
Inge wrote:Hi.
Is it possible to practice vajrayana without partaking in meat offerings?


Hi!

Technically yes but in actuallity it is really not possible to not encounter meat offerings at some point if one takes Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments (certainly in Sakya and often in Nyingma). Usually one can get around this by touching the meat to the lips (any lama will probably be fine with this). As noted in the discussion people are in different places and some people are not ready to incorporate this practice.

However many lower tantra practices have veg tsok from the beginning.

And as noted HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has urged people to move to veg tsok (unless, as he mentioned in one teaching, Mahakala actually shows up in person).

Kirt



There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby kirtu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

Yeshe wrote:There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.


That's true but I was talking about what lamas actually do in tsok. Sakya lamas are very traditional and are not interested in meat substitutes. Nyingma lamas in my experience are more open on the question but I have yet to see meat substitutes in tsok (unless it's a practice that requires a veg tsok).

Kirt
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:58 pm

kirtu wrote:
Yeshe wrote:There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.


That's true but I was talking about what lamas actually do in tsok. Sakya lamas are very traditional and are not interested in meat substitutes. Nyingma lamas in my experience are more open on the question but I have yet to see meat substitutes in tsok (unless it's a practice that requires a veg tsok).

Kirt


I think in the end one has to be guided by the root guru. I would hope that the requirements are explained beofre someone takesn an empowerment and Tantric vows etc. but I suspect some are rather shocked to find alcohol and meat being a part of a ritual, especially if the centre they attend is vegetarian in all other respects.

I know some teachers who are failry relaxed (and for example don't expect a recovering alcoholic to take alcohol or a vegetarian to take the meat - albeit in tiny quantities). Others may expect full participation. Like you, I have never seen substitution, only a variation in expectation.
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Re: Questions and doubts regarding meat offerings and vajrayana

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:02 pm

As Yeshe said there are meat substitutes which is perfectly acceptable for tsoks. And the ones I've attended, juice is offered along with wine.

Please remember that it is the representation and your state of mind which is important.

Kind wishes,
Laura
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How vege are you?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:57 pm

Image

hyuk hyuk hyuk...
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Re: How vege are you?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:37 pm

:lol:
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Re: How vege are you?

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:45 am

Thats hilarious :rolling:
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: How vege are you?

Postby Clueless Git » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:02 am

Yeah! Pinata rights and peace, maaan ... :yinyang:

:jumping:
Last edited by Clueless Git on Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How vege are you?

Postby plwk » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:31 am

:coffee:
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Re: How vege are you?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:32 am

"Level 5 vegan: I don't eat anything that casts a shadow."

from The Simpsons (a friend of Lisa's who is an environmentalist and animal rights activist)
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby Luke » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:11 pm

catmoon wrote:It's not really denial that's happening, though it must surely appear to be so. What is really happening here is: I am pushing the logic of the subject as far and hard as I can to see if it breaks.


Of course, it should be remembered that if a person wants to take the Bodhisattva Vow, this involves helping other sentient beings as much as possible and not simply trying to sneek in as much non-virtue as possible on the side.

A person aspiring to be a bodhisattva must be kind to all beings and regard them as more important than himself/herself. If one regards other sentient beings as more important than oneself and can't bear the thought of their suffering, then how could one slaughter and eat them?

One aspect of the true nature of one's mind is intense love for all beings. Killing animals comes from the poisons of ignorance, hatred, and attachment. We must purify ourselves of these negative emotions as much as possible, so that we have a chance to experience the true nature of our minds.

Mahayana is always about maximum kindness, not minimum kindness.
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby Clueless Git » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:09 am

Excellent post Luke :bow: :bow: :bow:

I don't like to think hatred is a cause though.

I don't remember ever had hatred towards animals or owt else in particular (mebbe with the exception of not really liking myself) when I was a meat eater.

I do remember having to harden myself to the plight of 'food' animals tho'. That being due to the incorrect belief that without meat in my diet I would become weak and ill. An incorrect belief, an ignorance, that manifested itself as fear.
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby Clueless Git » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:40 am

KeithBC wrote: (2) one or more customers wishing to eat the meat.

'Lo Keith :)

Bit of pedantism for you here ...

Would 'willing' be a better word?

I'm thinking there that just 'willingly' eating a plate of meat as opposed to 'wishfully' eating a plate of meat makes no difference to the death toll required to produce a plate of meat at all.
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby mudra » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:50 am

as a vegetarian of some 39 years (ok ok ovolacto), i have not gone into any kind of argument/debate re vegetarianism for the last 30 years. I just do it.

But it's good news about Mongolia. My two months in '95 there were probably the hardest in my life as a vegetarian. In general the sight and smell of meat doesn't disturb me, my lamas eat meat and it doesn't bother me. But the all pervasive smell of mutton in Mongolia got to me a bit in the end - not so much out on the steppes but when I transited Ulan Bataar and stayed a couple of nights in a hotel, ostensibly to relax, clean up etc before leaving: the smell of mutton was in the carpets, the curtains everything.

The early morning of my departure I was second in line at the airport immigration desk. Just as the first passenger got his passport stamped a young boy, obviously a runner, delivered a package smelling of, yes you got it, mutton. I prayed and prayed for him to wait but to no avail. The officer opened the package straight away, picked up a few grisly bits and sucked on them with deep satisfaction before chewing and swallowing. Then with a cursory wipe on his uniform he grabbed the stamp and gave my passport a vigorous thump. With my highly developed sense powers I saw the microdroplets of mutton gravy splattered ever so finely on the page and knew it would be months before the smell disappeared. (OK so I lied, they were globules of mutton fat that were visible to my boggling eyes and it smelt bl...y awful).
:rolleye:

Sorry - I only tell this story to illustrate that not all vegetarians have compassion. It took me about 2 hours before I had any remote sense of forgiveness....
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby catmoon » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:04 am

Hmm. Maybe you could have seized the opportunity for a meditation on impermanence? Would that have got you through it? I mean, in a sense you have were carrying a bit of portable corpse with you to contemplate.
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Re: Veg food catching on in Mongolia

Postby Indrajala » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:45 pm

mudra wrote:as a vegetarian of some 39 years (ok ok ovolacto), i have not gone into any kind of argument/debate re vegetarianism for the last 30 years. I just do it.

But it's good news about Mongolia. My two months in '95 there were probably the hardest in my life as a vegetarian. In general the sight and smell of meat doesn't disturb me, my lamas eat meat and it doesn't bother me. But the all pervasive smell of mutton in Mongolia got to me a bit in the end - not so much out on the steppes but when I transited Ulan Bataar and stayed a couple of nights in a hotel, ostensibly to relax, clean up etc before leaving: the smell of mutton was in the carpets, the curtains everything.

The early morning of my departure I was second in line at the airport immigration desk. Just as the first passenger got his passport stamped a young boy, obviously a runner, delivered a package smelling of, yes you got it, mutton. I prayed and prayed for him to wait but to no avail. The officer opened the package straight away, picked up a few grisly bits and sucked on them with deep satisfaction before chewing and swallowing. Then with a cursory wipe on his uniform he grabbed the stamp and gave my passport a vigorous thump. With my highly developed sense powers I saw the microdroplets of mutton gravy splattered ever so finely on the page and knew it would be months before the smell disappeared. (OK so I lied, they were globules of mutton fat that were visible to my boggling eyes and it smelt bl...y awful).
:rolleye:

Sorry - I only tell this story to illustrate that not all vegetarians have compassion. It took me about 2 hours before I had any remote sense of forgiveness....



When I was in Taiwan I came back from the bookstore to the hostel with a dharma book in hand.

One fellow asked to see it and of course I handed it over.

He inspected it and handed it back to me.

"Yeah, I went for dinner with a friend..."

...and as I looked at the back of book a visible smear of grease was present.

I delicately attempted to clean it off with tissues and soap, but that damn smell remained for awhile.

When you don't eat meat, you really smell it. It permeates through things.

No wonder it says in the Brahma Net Sutra that if you eat meat animals will run away from you!
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