Seeing Your Nature

Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Dae Bi » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:21 pm

How may one see the Buddha nature without liberation. This liberation is the removal of the clouds from the otherwise clear sky.
It's sunnny here this morning. :hi:
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:20 pm

:namaste: it has been sunny here today. people enjoying the sunshine!
no need to clear away any clouds. it is just as it is! Dae Bi is Dae Bi. what more does he need to know?! he knows himself, he knows his nature. clouds are clouds, but he is always just Dae Bi. what strange nature is there to know? lets keep things simple Dae. it is the ego that likes to complicate.

love, White Lotus. x

suffering from the paralysis of analysis,
he will never see the obvious. As indicated
by the sixth patriarch, it is the clever who
are 'stupid'.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Dae Bi » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:17 am

How does Dae Bi know he is Dae Bi without removing the clouds? Only then, will the clouds be undestood. First there is a mountain then there is no mountain, then there is :rolleye:
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby catmoon » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:54 am

Dae Bi wrote:How does Dae Bi know he is Dae Bi without removing the clouds? Only then, will the clouds be undestood. First there is a mountain then there is no mountain, then there is :rolleye:


By Jiminy, I think he's got it!
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby White Lotus » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:10 pm

:namaste: i think you could be right catmoon!

then there is :rolleye:

he sees his nature! but who doesnt?! it was someone deluded who wanted to complicate things that said you need to see your nature. actually, you dont need to see anything! it just is. things just are. i just am. you just are. just so. so.

this is why Hui neng says that it is the 'stupid' who cannot see their nature. this is like saying, just touch your nose.

love White Lotus. x :rolleye:

a verse for Dae Bi.
i see it now.
how could i ever have missed it!
i have a nose.
just touch your nose and you are
fully enlightened. ha! ha! he! he!
theres nothing in it.


Dae Bi, one day you will see that there are no clouds to clear away. that everyone and everything is perfectly enlightened and always has been.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Dae Bi » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:24 pm

How do you know this White Lotus? Or is this just a belief based on what Hui Neng Said?
There's nothing like a touch of humour :rolleye:
Well It's good to know I don't have to practice anymore, because there is nothing to practice. Everybody who practices Cha'n is Stupid! All one needs to do is touch ones nose!
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby White Lotus » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:54 pm

why practice when there is no path, not a single footstep made in any direction. and yet why not practice if you enjoy the practice. just be free to come and go where there is ultimately no coming or going, but thats not important.

when you have arrived, dont think that you have arrived. there is no arriving. but if you want to think you have arrived, thats fine. the ego is perfect suchness. defilements wash away pride. is it not all exactly as it is.

everyone is perfectly enlightened, they always have been. this is why people of all sorts are so unbelievably precious. they dont know they are enlightened, but this doesnt matter. theres not a thing that matters. just be free.

how do i know this? simple. it is prajna wisdom (which is not complicated). anyone can work it out. its always there to be found if you want to look for it... but why bother, nothing is gained, nothing is lost.

with love, from White Lotus. x

seeking prajna?
why bother, youve
already found it.
where?
precisely.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Astus » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:33 pm

White Lotus,

You talk about enlightenment as if it were the simplest thing in the world. Do you also think the great Zen teachers of the past were stupid people who learnt and practised for decades in mountains and monasteries before they claimed understanding? Should we tell the monks and nuns of today they can now go home since they're already buddhas?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Dae Bi » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:24 pm

White lotus, methinks you may be stuck in emptiness.
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby White Lotus » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:13 pm

:namaste: Wise Astus, i dont claim to be enlightened! i have no experience of enlightenment. it is only wisdom i speak of. there is no me to be enlightened. i am still convinced that it is very simple in terms of wisdom. why complicate things? Astus you have no need to be careful when speaking to me. you can say what you want, this dharma cannot be defiled.

Dae Bi! how stuck in emptiness Dae (up to my nose?!), teach me. i am ready to learn. (seriously... how do you come to this insight?)

best wishes, White Lotus. x

give to form its due,
emptiness has no returns.
simplicity rules the day.


ps. astus it is not me who thinks anyone is or ever was stupid, the word stupid is used by Hui neng to describe those who are not able to see their own nature. i think everyone is enlightened, how then could i see anything or anyone as stupid?
tc.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Astus » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:34 pm

It is not enough to see simplicity, wisdom means seeing simplicity and complexity at the same time. This is the harmony of essence and function.

Guishan said to the assembly, "People nowadays have great capacity but do not have great function."
Yangshan related this to a temple priest. The temple priest kicked over a stool. Hearing about it, Guishan burst into laughter.

Everywhere, suffering and pain;
everyone, vainly discussing the self.
Though they are buddha,
it's all buried beneath years of conditioning.
(Dogen/Loori: The True Dharma Eye, 279)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Indrajala » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:20 pm

Astus wrote:It is not enough to see simplicity, wisdom means seeing simplicity and complexity at the same time. This is the harmony of essence and function.

Guishan said to the assembly, "People nowadays have great capacity but do not have great function."
Yangshan related this to a temple priest. The temple priest kicked over a stool. Hearing about it, Guishan burst into laughter.

Everywhere, suffering and pain;
everyone, vainly discussing the self.
Though they are buddha,
it's all buried beneath years of conditioning.
(Dogen/Loori: The True Dharma Eye, 279)



As I'm sure you're aware, the internet is full of people who think of themselves as emulating Zen masters of the past and are so confident in their "wisdom" that they know that adepts like themselves would never admit to being enlightened.

It is like seeing a character or persona in a work of fiction, being inspired, and attempting to emulate him or her in real life despite in reality lacking the actual credentials and experience.

I think a lot of English speakers, who hail from cultures where sarcasm is a virtue, find characters like Linji and Hakuin among others as particularly appealing role models to follow. Huineng is also very appealing if only because he became enlightened without having an education or knowing how to read. It means you too could likewise be enlightened despite nobody believing you and have a heroic escape away from the monastery away from the unenlightened zealots.
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:07 pm

In Jiang Wu's "Enlightenment in Dispute" there are some nice stories about Confucian literati playing the Chan master. It is really amusing. Nevertheless, it shows how much Chan is about style rather than content (in appearance). A couple of years back I could still meet people from the Kwan Um School of Zen who actually talked (wrote on forum) like Seung Sahn, although they were native English people. The question is: What would be left of Chan without "Linji's shout (often mistranslated as KATSU/KATZ) and Deshan's stick"?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Seeing Your Nature

Postby White Lotus » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:37 pm

:namaste: well lads, it might be nice to be able to say "i am enlightened", but im honestly not sure whether theres anything in it to speak of. honestly, we have to ask ourselves whether enlightenment is to be found in anything. in yung chia we are told "in the dharma body's enlightenment, not a thing is to be found." surely we are all looking for something that is already there. not a thing in it. therefore i say that the teaching of emptiness is profound. there is not a thing in it.

if i were enlightened, i would admit to it. whats wrong Huseng with saying i am or i am not enlightened if it relates to my own experience, but i really dont think that enlightenment is a state to be attained or realized. i think it is something we all have... naturally. so.

to say that there is no enlightenment to attain, it does not concern me that i do not have any notion whatsoever of being enlightened. the name "unsurpassable enlightenment" is just a name.

best wishes, White Lotus. x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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