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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:26 pm 
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I have seen "Practice of conscious dying", or "Transference of consciousness at the time of death" or "ejection of consciousness" etcetera. These describe the practice, but I would like the plain dictionary meaning(s) of pho & wa - if that is how it is broken down.

Only transliterations please.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:30 pm 
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The word is about movement.
apho ba is to move, to migrate, to transfer.
Thus the "transference of consciousness" explanatory translation.

Is that what you are looking for?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
The word is about movement.
apho ba is to move, to migrate, to transfer.
Thus the "transference of consciousness" explanatory translation.

Is that what you are looking for?


Yes, but I guess the A in aphoba is silent? But where is the "consciousness" term; is there another word that belongs with (phonetic) phoba, but is so well-known it is dropped most of the time?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:48 pm 
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The word phowa on its own doesnt have a consciousness part to it. That is more contextual to the practice.
The small "a" at the beginning is silent, and is in most cases in Tibetan spelling.
As far as I can tell the word apho ba without context is merely about movement.

There are also many different kinds of phowa practice. Different contexts and meanings are applied through their descriptions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Hi
I understand as Nangwa says, that 'consciousness' is implied in context.
I have just lifted this from the Rangjung yeshe dictionary:

'pho ba
ejection of consciousness A yogic practice in which consciousness leaves the body. One of the yogas of Naropa [ry]
'pho ba - {'pho ba, 'phos pa, 'pho ba} intr. v.; the transference of consciousness; to transfer, shift, transit, transpose; transformation; changing, emanating, descent, ejection, dying, ejection of consciousness, transferring, to change place, shift. the transformation at death into a higher realm of existence. ft. of {'pho ba}; transference of consciousness; to transfer/ shift; to transmit; to enter [the heart]; to be transferred [ry]

'pho ba - phowa, transference of consciousness [ry]

'pho ba - transference of consciousness; to transfer/ shift; isc. shift in perspective/ paradigm shift [RB]

'pho ba - {rang rgyud la 'pho ba} that they may receive in themselves [ry]

'pho ba - 1) transport/ transfer; 2) go; 3) death; 4) changing [emanating, descent, ejection, dying, ejection of consciousness, change place, shift the transformation at death into a higher realm of existence] [IW]

'pho ba - Phowa. Ejection of consciousness to a buddhafield at the moment of death [ry]

'pho ba - 90 minute period, change, transform, transfer, transmigration, change place, go, move oneself away, migrate, depart, shift, descent, ejection, alter, SA spo ba, meditation on transferring the consciousness, movement, cycle of breaths, force of the breath, flowing of the breath [JV]

'pho ba - 1) transport/ transfer; 2) go; 3) death; 4) changing [IW]

'pho ba grong 'jug - yoga of transference [of consciousness between bodies part of 'pho ba, one of the six yogas of Naropa n' ro chos drug] [IW]

'pho ba grong 'jug - yoga of transference [IW]

'pho ba grong 'jug - ejection and transference [ry]

'pho ba grong 'jug - transfer of soul from one body to another just vacated by death [JV]

'pho ba rgyang 'phen byed pa - to perform the transference of consciousness from a distance [ry]

'pho ba chen po - great transfer, great transformation, great transference, supreme transference [JV]

'pho ba chen po - the Great Transfer; the great transformation, supreme transformation, {'ja' lus 'pho ba chen po} [ry]

'pho ba chen po - the great transformation [IW]

'pho ba chen po'i sku - the great transformation body; body of great transformation; enlightened form (resulting from) supreme transference of consciousness [ry]

'pho ba chen po'i sku - enlightened form (resulting from) supreme transference of consciousness [RB]

'pho ba chen po'i sku - body of great transformation (G [IW]

'pho ba chen po'i lus - body of great transformation [ry]

'pho ba chen por bzhengs - produce the great transformation [IW]

'pho ba btab - performed the transference [ry]

'pho ba btab pa - performed the transference of consciousness [ry]

'pho ba 'debs - apply the transference [JV]

'pho ba 'debs pa - make a transference [of consciousness] [IW]

'pho ba 'debs pa - make a transference [of conscousness] [elevate the consciousness of a dead person to the pure fields, transfer consciousness] [IW]

'pho ba dpa' bo g.yul 'jug pa - Hero Entering the Battle, Transference [ry]

'pho ba dpa' bo g.yul 'jug pa - Transference, the Hero Entering the Battle, a text for the transference practice from the Kadampa tradition [ry]

'pho ba dpa' bo g.yul 'jug pa - a text for the transference practice, from the Kadampa tradition [ry]

'pho ba sbyang ba - to train in phowa, ejection of consciousness [ry]

'pho ba sbyang ba - train in phowa [IW]

'pho ba sbyong ba - training in phowa [ry]

'pho ba ma sgom sangs rgyas - Transference That Leads to Enlightenment without Meditation, possibly from Jigmey Lingpa's Longchen Nyingtig cycle (klong chen snying thig) [ry]

'pho ba zang thal bsgom pa - the meditation on transparency of pho ba [IW]

'pho ba'i khrid - guidance manual in transference [IW]

'pho ba'i sgrib pa - obscuration of transition [ry]

'pho ba'i sgrib pa - obscuration to transition [ry]

'pho ba'i gdams pa - esoteric instruction on the technique of transference of the conscious principle at the moment of death [ry]

'pho ba'i gnad - specific point of the flowing of the breath [JV]

'pho ba'i bag chags - habitual tendency of transference [ry]

'pho ba'i bag chags kyi dri ma - defilement of the habitual tendencies of transition [ry]

'pho ba'i byed pa bdun - the 7 performers of change [stages of life] [IW]

'pho ba'i byed pa bdun - the seven performers of change [gdab pa dang ['debs divide develop?, byis pa, infant rigs can, having rationality til rdung, sesame bbeater khyim skyes, householder tsong pa, merchant pishti ??? rnams by the cycling the earlir and later successive stages they are called the 'pho ba'i byed pa zhes grags] [IW]

'pho ba'i dbugs - the shifting breaths [ry]

'pho ba'i dbye ba bcu gcig - 11 divisions of transference [CHN] [IW]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Thanks to both of you, very helpful.

What about the 'grong 'jug' term that follows phoba? I cannot figure out what it means from the four example translations I see.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Will wrote:
Thanks to both of you, very helpful.

What about the 'grong 'jug' term that follows phoba? I cannot figure out what it means from the four example translations I see.

To transfer into another body.
What text are you looking at?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:32 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Will wrote:
Thanks to both of you, very helpful.

What about the 'grong 'jug' term that follows phoba? I cannot figure out what it means from the four example translations I see.

To transfer into another body.
What text are you looking at?


The dictionary excerpt above by Mr Distracted -- so 'grong 'jug' means "into body"??

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:36 pm 
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grong can mean body or corpse it is the word for city/town aswell.

'jug means usually go into, put into or enter.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Granted that 'pho ba is mainly used in regard to consciousness transference; but are there other examples where it is not used in this sadhana-focused manner? I am wondering if anyone has run across it being used as are these less common dictionary definitions?

Quote:
to transfer, shift, transit, transpose; transformation; changing, emanating

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:12 pm 
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'pho ba and esp. tha dad pa form spo ba are used in everyday Tibetan speech to mean "moving/ transferring something from one place to another", it's not restricted to Phowa practice at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:49 pm 
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tantular wrote:
'pho ba and esp. tha dad pa form spo ba are used in everyday Tibetan speech to mean "moving/ transferring something from one place to another", it's not restricted to Phowa practice at all.


Good to know tantular - I thank you.

Now what about 'pho ba being used in writing or speech with any of these three definitions?

Quote:
transformation; changing, emanating

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:24 am 
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While you're at it, what is the correct, or at least he accepted pronounciation of phowa for English speakers?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:00 am 
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Will wrote:
Now what about 'pho ba being used in writing or speech with any of these three definitions?

Quote:
transformation; changing, emanating


The RYI dictionary isn't actually a dictionary, it's a database of the ways RYI translators have at some point translated a given Tibetan word or phrase. You'd translate "It's raining cats and dogs" as "Il pleut des cordes" in French (lit. "It's raining ropes"), & in an RYI French-English dictionary one of the definitions of cordes would be "cats and dogs".

There can be instances where a translator might choose to translate 'pho ba in these ways ("The Rainbow Body of Great Transformation" for 'ja' lus 'pho ba chen po, for example), but this doesn't reflect a separate meaning of the Tibetan word.

'pho ba is roughly pronounced Pough-wah (as in Edgar Allen + wah wah paddle).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:46 pm 
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tantular, thanks again for your help.

Do you agree that the general or basic meaning is motion or movement?

Please give your list of actual, alternate meanings (not translation choices) other than "transference, motion, movement"

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:07 am 
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Yes, the basic meaning is motion or movement away from somewhere. The thsig mdzod chen mo (the standard Tibetan dictionary) only lists 2 basic synonyms: 'khyur ba (to leave, abandon—kind of hard to translate, because these verbs are transitive in English, whereas the Tibetan verb is tha mi dad pa, i.e. a verb where the action and agent are not separate) and 'gro ba (to go).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Will wrote:
tantular, thanks again for your help.

Do you agree that the general or basic meaning is motion or movement?

Please give your list of actual, alternate meanings (not translation choices) other than "transference, motion, movement"



In the dictionary he mentioned, it give the meaning he indicated, to leave or desert ('khyur) and to depart/move ('gro ba). The second definition is states that it is a name for death ('chi ba).

'gro is a word that means move, but has a connation of moving away -- it's counterpart is 'on ba, to come. This is why dictionary glosses 'pho ba with 'gro ba; because it is emphasizing the notion of moving away from somewhere. As stated above.

Thus when we die, the mind departs and leaves for another world, for example.

However, when 'pho is combined with 'rgyur, it is a sort of fancy way of saying "change"; the example give is "there is no change ('pho 'gyur) in space."

Therefore, when it comes the exegisis of a word like 'pho ba chen po, it seems it is mostly glossed as "transformation" as if the term in full would be 'pho 'gyur chen po'i sku i.e. body of complete transformation (of the physical elements into wisdom light).

N

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Knowledge is a wondrous power - so prostrations again :bow:

Now if you generous teachers will take another step and provide which Sanskrit term or terms 'phoba is translating.

I thought I read somewhere that the Tibetans had a precise system (and glossary) of such translating, where every Sanskrit Dharma word was assigned a Tibetan one.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Will wrote:

Now if you generous teachers will take another step and provide which Sanskrit term or terms 'phoba is translating.



jātiparivartaḥ: jāti means birthplace; parivartah means changing.

The practice of phowa is conscious rebirth in another place, such as Sukhavati. The meaning of phowa is just taking birth in the next world after dying in this one.

Then there is the native Tibetan meaning of phowa which mentioned above. The Tibetans also translated these other Sanskrit words as 'pho ba:

parivarta: %{-vartaka} &c. see %{parivRt} , p. 601.
2 parivarta m. revolving , revolution (of a planet &c.) Su1ryas. ; a period or lapse or expiration of time (esp. of a Yuga q.v.) MBh. R. &c. ; (with %{lokAnAm}) the end of the world R. ; a year L. ; moving to and fro , stirring Prasannar. ; turning back , flight L. ; change , exchange , barter (also %{parI-v-}) Ya1jn5. MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; requital , return W. ; an abode , spot , place Hariv. ; a chapter , section , book &c. Lalit. ; N. of a son of Doh2-saha (son of Mr2ityu) Ma1rkP. [601,3] ; of the Ku1rma or 2nd incarnation of Vishn2u (also %{parI-v-}) L.
3 parIvarta m. exchange , barter Hit. (v.l.) ; N. of the Ku1rma or 2nd incarnation of Vishn2u L. (cf. %{pari-v-}). %{-vartam} ind. ( %{vRt}) in a circle , recurring , repeatedly Ta1n2d2Br.


saṃkrānti: going from one place to another , course or passage or entry into , transference to (loc. or comp.) Ka1v. Ma1rkP. ; (in astron.) passage of the sun or a planet from one sign or position in the heavens into another (e.g. %{uttarA7yaNa-s-} , `" passage of the sun to its northern course "' [cf. %{kUTa-s-}] ; a day on which a principal Sam2kra1nti occurs is kept as a festival , see RTL. 428) Su1ryas. ; transference of an art (from a teacher to a pupil) Ma1lav. i , 15 , 18 ; transferring to a picture , image , reflection W. ; = %{-vAdin} Buddh. ; %{-kaumudI} f. N. of an astron. wk. ; %{-cakra} n. an astrological diagram marked with the Nakshatras and used for foretelling good or bad fortune MW. ; %{-nirNaya} m. %{-paTala} m. n. %{-prakaraNa} n. %{-phala} n. %{-lakSaNa} n. N. of wks. ; %{-vAdin} m. pl. a partic. Buddhist school ; %{-viveka} m. %{-vyavasthA-nirNaya} m. %{-zAnti} , f. ; (%{-nty}) %{-udyApana} n. N. of wks.

saṃcāra: mfn. going about , moving (see %{divA-s-}) ; going or belonging together , simultaneous VS. A1pS3r. ; m. (ifc. f. %{A}) passage , a way , road , path , place for walking (esp. the space assigned to each person who takes part in a rite) TS. S3Br. S3rS. Ka1lid. Katha1s. ; a difficult passage , defile , bridge over a torrent &c. W. ; (in Sa1m2khya) evolution , development , emanation Tattvas. ; the body L. ; killing W. ; %{-bhAgin} mfn. obtaining a share with difficulty (?) Vas.
2 saMcAra m. (ifc. f. %{A}) walking about , wandering , roaming , driving or riding , any motion MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; transit , passage ib. ; the passage or entrance of the sun into a new sign MW. ; passing over , transition , transference to (comp.) Ya1jn5. ; transmission (of disease) , contagion W. ; course , path , way (also fig. = `" mode , manner "') MBh. Hariv. ; track (of wild animals) S3ak. Sch. ; course of life , career Sa1h. ; a partic. class of spies L. ; difficult progress , difficulty , distress W. ; leading , guiding ib. ; inciting , impelling ib. ; a gem supposed to be in the head of a serpent ib. ; = %{huM-kAra} ChUp. ; [w.r. for %{saM-cara} , %{saM-sAra} , and %{sac-cAra}] ; %{-jIvin} m. (prob.) a tramp , vagabond L. ; %{-patha} m. a walk , walking-place Hariv. ; (in dram.) a female attendant on a king (= %{yavanI}) Bhar. ; %{-pUta} mfn. purified by the course or passage (of anything) MW. ; %{-vyAdhi} m. a partic. (prob. infectious) disease L.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Malcolm is a gem :bow:

Are the dictionary passages above online? There does not seem to be Devanagari, which is good, but the display is horrid. If I could look at the site directly, maybe things would clear up.

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