"taking someone else's negative karma"

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:50 am

spanda wrote:Ok, but take the example of a person who is in a coma, at 10000 km. That person can't rejoice anything, it's far away, it is not present at the Chod ceremony. And , even if I am near him, he can listen any teaching (like in Sakyamuny example)
And Namdrol was very clear: "Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself."

So explain me very concretely how I can help a person who is in a coma at a 10000 km, with a long life practice. Because if it is like Namdrol sad, that the merit is not shared in the real sense, then the fact that I realize a long life practice (which is very efficient for me, I agree), doesn't help the person in a coma, because I can't share that merit with the sick person.

Because you coordinate his elements like I told you. Distance matters only if you think it matters IMO.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:01 am

Pero wrote:
Mind is powerful. If someone can move objects with his mind for example, then he could also harm or help a sentient being through his mind alone. Perhaps by focusing on something particular or having a general intention. There is no need for there to be transfer of merit. The person being helped however, certainly needs merits to be helped. So if you helped someone it's not because you gave him merit but because that person already had merit of his own.


Ok, So if the sick person doesn't have merits to be helped, everything I do (long life practice, liberation of animals) doesn't work? But this is the reason I try to practice for someone, because he doesn't have merits to be healthy, in that moment. This is what I try to correct from the beginning. What power have this practices, if they work only if the person in cause needs to have merits to be helped?

I agree completely with you regarding mind being capable of influencing matter. I've seen even videos of Kulaghina doing this. I want to understand the Buddhist perspective, the way they explain th mechanism involved in helping others by practicing for them. And by the limitation imposed by Namdrol (somehow logical) its' very difficult to explain how this practices work.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:05 am

Pero wrote:
spanda wrote:Ok, but take the example of a person who is in a coma, at 10000 km. That person can't rejoice anything, it's far away, it is not present at the Chod ceremony. And , even if I am near him, he can listen any teaching (like in Sakyamuny example)
And Namdrol was very clear: "Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself."

So explain me very concretely how I can help a person who is in a coma at a 10000 km, with a long life practice. Because if it is like Namdrol sad, that the merit is not shared in the real sense, then the fact that I realize a long life practice (which is very efficient for me, I agree), doesn't help the person in a coma, because I can't share that merit with the sick person.

Because you coordinate his elements like I told you. Distance matters only if you think it matters IMO.


Why than the infinite numbers of Bodhisattva don't coordinate the elements of all the people in sufferings, to make them healthy? If it is so easy?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:15 am

spanda wrote:And by the limitation imposed by Namdrol (somehow logical) its' very difficult to explain how this practices work.


They work because we are all connected through the elements, and the elements are empty.

At the level of Dzogchen they function because of rtsal.

But there are serious limitations on what we can do for someone else.

Being a bodhisattva on the paths and stages does not mean one has knowledge of methods. It just means one has realized emptiness and is practicing the six perfections.

For example, in Tibetan Medicine we discuss the issue of karmic diseases. When someone has a karmic disease there is nothing they can do about it except accumulate merit. They can hire someone do rituals on their behalf, and this is effective because they are causing the action to take place, etc. etc.

When a community of people do a long life practice for teacher for example, as a community they are generating merit, and since the teacher belongs to that community too, also their own merit increases, etc. It is mutually reinforcing.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:20 am

Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:Being a bodhisattva on the paths and stages does not mean one has knowledge of methods. It just means one has realized emptiness and is practicing the six perfections.
.


My mistake. Fully enlightened beings. Why they don't coordinate the elements of all the people in sufferings, to make them healthy, if it is possible? There are limitations for them also, here?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:29 am

spanda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:Being a bodhisattva on the paths and stages does not mean one has knowledge of methods. It just means one has realized emptiness and is practicing the six perfections.
.


My mistake. Fully enlightened beings. Why they don't coordinate the elements of all the people in sufferings, to make them healthy, if it is possible? There are limitations for them also, here?


Buddha's aren't omnipotent Gods.

    Evil is done by oneself
    by oneself is one defiled.
    Evil is left undone by oneself
    by oneself is one cleansed.
    Purity & impurity are one's own doing.
    No one purifies another.
    No other purifies one.

    - Dhp 165
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:30 am

spanda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:Being a bodhisattva on the paths and stages does not mean one has knowledge of methods. It just means one has realized emptiness and is practicing the six perfections.
.


My mistake. Fully enlightened beings. Why they don't coordinate the elements of all the people in sufferings, to make them healthy, if it is possible? There are limitations for them also, here?



Because the force of our ignorance is stronger then their power.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:36 am

Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:And by the limitation imposed by Namdrol (somehow logical) its' very difficult to explain how this practices work.


They work because we are all connected through the elements, and the elements are empty.

At the level of Dzogchen they function because of rtsal.

But there are serious limitations on what we can do for someone else.

Being a bodhisattva on the paths and stages does not mean one has knowledge of methods. It just means one has realized emptiness and is practicing the six perfections.

For example, in Tibetan Medicine we discuss the issue of karmic diseases. When someone has a karmic disease there is nothing they can do about it except accumulate merit. They can hire someone do rituals on their behalf, and this is effective because they are causing the action to take place, etc. etc.

When a community of people do a long life practice for teacher for example, as a community they are generating merit, and since the teacher belongs to that community too, also their own merit increases, etc. It is mutually reinforcing.


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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:38 am

Namdrol wrote:

Because the force of our ignorance is stronger then their power.


Are you serious here? This is not a joke?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:46 am

spanda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Because the force of our ignorance is stronger then their power.


Are you serious here? This is not a joke?



Yes, I am being completely serious.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:38 am

Namdrol wrote:The Buddhas are free from experiencing the ripening of the result of karma [karmavipakaphala], hence it stands to reason they cannot take on the results of karma.

Just because for Buddhas, their karmic latencies have been eliminated does not necessarily imply they have no ability to accept/take on the manifested results of a deluded being.

Namdrol wrote:Birth in one of the six lokas is the manifested result of karma. Do you think Buddha can just place one in nirvana?

This is not the issue because I am not referring to the latencies ... just as going to a pureland does not mean that latencies are left behind.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:39 am

Namdrol wrote:How about "suffering cannot be removed with the hand..."

No source of the citation was provided.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:43 am

Namdrol wrote:For example? What practices? Customs are not Dharma. They are customs. For example is was the custom in a part of Eastern Bhutan to slaughter animals for ganapujas until Kunzang Dechen Lingpa put an end to it.

Logical fallacy. One wrong custom/practice implied all custom/practices are wrong?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Because the force of our ignorance is stronger then their power.


Are you serious here? This is not a joke?



Yes, I am being completely serious.

I think I'm not going far off the mark by recalling that the compassion of Buddhas is non directional, as the sun that shines everywhere. Yet, like beings going from the shade to the sunlight we need to recognize that compassion so that it becomes a source of liberation from samsara. It reminds me of that sentence attributed to Padmasambhava in which he states that like the reflection of the moon in a vase of water he too will be present in front of those who have faith in him. A dog can't recognize the compassion of the enlightened beings, so for him it's pretty much useless. OTOH, a practitioner can and so he can benefit of it.
Does this relate to the subject at hand, Loppon la?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Sherab, the corollary of thinking that Buddhas can take deluded beings karma is that Buddhas don't have compassion. Plus, the view of karma as if it was a pile of pebbles that can be given or taken is not very correct, I believe, although it seems fairly common. I think it is more useful to think about karma as the absence of light. You can't share shadow bit by bit. As we practice, we are turning the lights on and making them brighter. Ultimately what shines on is our real nature.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:47 pm

spanda wrote:Ok, So if the sick person doesn't have merits to be helped, everything I do (long life practice, liberation of animals) doesn't work? But this is the reason I try to practice for someone, because he doesn't have merits to be healthy, in that moment. This is what I try to correct from the beginning. What power have this practices, if they work only if the person in cause needs to have merits to be helped?

For healing meritless people? I think other than creating a connection with them, none. After all if you're totally meritless, you die. Doesn't mean it's useless to try to help people though, since you don't know how much merit they have or what their past karma is.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:51 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I think I'm not going far off the mark by recalling that the compassion of Buddhas is non directional, as the sun that shines everywhere. Yet, like beings going from the shade to the sunlight we need to recognize that compassion so that it becomes a source of liberation from samsara. It reminds me of that sentence attributed to Padmasambhava in which he states that like the reflection of the moon in a vase of water he too will be present in front of those who have faith in him. A dog can't recognize the compassion of the enlightened beings, so for him it's pretty much useless. OTOH, a practitioner can and so he can benefit of it.
Does this relate to the subject at hand, Loppon la?

I'm not totally sure I got you right, but I think this is a little faulty reasoning. If you annonymously help someone out of your compassion, that someone will benefit whether he's aware of your compassion or not. A sleeping starving dog won't know you dropped some meat out of compassion in front of him when he wakes up, but he's not going to be hungry anymore.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:And by the limitation imposed by Namdrol (somehow logical) its' very difficult to explain how this practices work.


They work because we are all connected through the elements, and the elements are empty.

At the level of Dzogchen they function because of rtsal.

But there are serious limitations on what we can do for someone else.

For example, in Tibetan Medicine we discuss the issue of karmic diseases. When someone has a karmic disease there is nothing they can do about it except accumulate merit. They can hire someone do rituals on their behalf, and this is effective because they are causing the action to take place, etc. etc.
.


This mean that, if I do a practice for someone who is in a coma, I can help him, not because I "transfer" somehow the merit of my practice, not because I "take" his negative karma, but because there is a direct connection between us, and we are all connected at some level. (There are also scientifically studies, in medicine and cuantic physics, which proves very clearly this point)
The problem is that, if this sick person doesn't have at list some good karma (merits) to be healed (if it is a very bad karmic illness/situation), I will not be capable to help him, whatever I do. And nobody will be capable to help him, even if it is a fully enlightened being. (Because he is in a coma, and he is not capable to hire someone to do a ritual for him, etc)

Probably this is the serious limitation you are talking about.
Then karma could be a real bitch..

I was more idealistic in this matter.. i didn't know that sometimes we can't escape in any way from a bad illness/suffering, and we are obliged to consume/fructify completely that karma.. If life is exactly like this, than the moment in which we are healthy and we could practice are really extremely "precious occasions"..
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:44 pm

Pero wrote: Doesn't mean it's useless to try to help people though, since you don't know how much merit they have or what their past karma is.


Obviously
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:38 pm

They can hire someone do rituals on their behalf, and this is effective because they are causing the action to take place, etc. etc.
Now it's starting to make some sense! Thank you!
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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