"taking someone else's negative karma"

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby kirtu » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:02 pm

Mr. G wrote: As Namdrol said, if Buddha's can take on bad karma, we should all be doing pretty well on the path then, if not close to enlightenment, or fully enlightened with signs to prove it.


The way this is usually presented in Sakya teachings is that the Buddha's are constantly sending blessings and can be seen metaphorically as hooks. In order to get the blessings we have to offer the rings of devotion. So there is interdependence between Buddha's and beings and beings have to respond from their side.

If we assume for discussion that Buddha's can take on bad karma then this can explain people being saved in miracles for example. But since they didn't instantaneously attain enlightenment, then the Buddha's are limited in the karma they can take or taking karma acts slowly (lifetimes) and over these lifetimes karma will still ripen and more karma will be produced.

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:10 pm

kirtu wrote:So there is interdependence between Buddha's and beings and beings have to respond from their side.


Agreed. Both parties have to have that merit and karmic connection.

If we assume for discussion that Buddha's can take on bad karma then this can explain people being saved in miracles for example.


I interpret this from the POV of the party being saved as having the merit and karmic connection to be saved by Avalokitesvara, Green Tara, etc.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:48 pm

The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby dakini_boi » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:51 pm

What is the difference between the idea of "taking someone else's negative karma" and the power of prayer? Prayer has been studied scientifically, and has been shown to be effective.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby kirtu » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:59 pm

dakini_boi wrote:What is the difference between the idea of "taking someone else's negative karma" and the power of prayer? Prayer has been studied scientifically, and has been shown to be effective.


Prayer is an intention and creates an interdependence or auspicious connection with Buddha's, Arya Bodhisattvas, Protectors and other beings which may be answerable in historic time in some manner.

Taking karma from a sentient being means an Arya (in this discussion this has been confined to Buddha's) actually eliminating the effect of an action.

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:01 am

Namdrol wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Is negative karma cannot be taken, how can merit then be giving and shared?


Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself.

If the transfer of merit could rescue beings from samsara, then considering that no one has greater merit than a Buddha, and no greater generosity, why have we not all been liberated?



From this point of view, If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill. Because, essentially I waist my time (in the sense that i don't help him). I only do something that helps me, in fact, which is not what I want to do, especially in that situation.. Even if someone is sick (in a coma, for example), and I want to help him, in reality, based on what you sad, doing tonglen practice, longevity practice, etc, I help only myself. Which is pretty sad..

Then why it is recommended that, if you want to help someone who is very ill, to buy animals which are to be slaughtered, and liberate them, and dedicate the merit to that person?

For example, here:
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Pr ... etreat.htm

"Experience has shown that liberating animals is one of the important ways in which people who have cancer or other life-threatening diseases can heal themsleves, and have a long life." "Animal liberation doesn't have to be done for only yourself. You can also dedicate the practice to others—family members or anyone else". " In that way, there are a great many benefits" - Lama Zopa Rinpoche

What benefits, if the suffering karma of that person could not be modified/influenced/transferred, and merit could not be shared in a real sense?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:05 am

spanda wrote:From this point of view, If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill.

Well that's like saying it's completely useless to do an appendectomy on someone because karma can't be transferred. :smile:
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:23 am

Pero wrote:
spanda wrote:From this point of view, If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill.

Well that's like saying it's completely useless to do an appendectomy on someone because karma can't be transferred. :smile:


Ok, in what way exactly I help, because from the answer from this posts , it's very unclear.
At list at an appendectomy is obvious the effects of my action. But here, if I do this practice from a person in a coma state (let's talk on a concrete case), how exactly I would help him, in that moment, with that particular health problem, for which it is recommended to do this practices, if karma/merit could not be shared?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:53 am

spanda wrote:
Pero wrote:
spanda wrote:From this point of view, If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill.

Well that's like saying it's completely useless to do an appendectomy on someone because karma can't be transferred. :smile:


Ok, in what way exactly I help, because from the answer from this posts , it's very unclear.
At list at an appendectomy is obvious the effects of my action. But here, if I do this practice from a person in a coma state (let's talk on a concrete case), how exactly I would help him, in that moment, with that particular health problem, for which it is recommended to do this practices, if karma/merit could not be shared?

Well for one thing long life practice coordinates the elements. So if you're doing LL practice for someone, you're helping to coordinate his elements. And when you dedicate merit with some specific intention then I think that intent itself is what does something, without there being some kind of actual merit transfer. Jesus said faith can move mountains. :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:01 am

Namdrol wrote:The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.

Assertion like this without providing explanations does not help move a discussion forward to a resolution and is merely an attempt to impose a particular viewpoint. And I think no one here is really referring to the action karma or any latency but to the manifested results.
Last edited by Sherab on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:03 am

Pero wrote: Well for one thing long life practice coordinates the elements. So if you're doing LL practice for someone, you're helping to coordinate his elements. :D


How exactly? The person could be at 1000 km distances.

Pero wrote: And when you dedicate merit with some specific intention then I think that intent itself is what does something, without there being some kind of actual merit transfer


The intent you say, but without merit sharing, and without any karmic seed/karmic effect being modified in any way by my practice, because that's impossible. Ok. I don't understand. :shrug:
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:13 am

spanda wrote: If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill.


How did you come to that conclusion? Have you read the previous pages on the sharing of merit? The idea of long life practices also has a place in the suttas, where Ananda could have requested Shakyamuni Buddha to remain through the end of a world period:

    3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

    4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

    5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent.

    6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you."

    "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away.

However, I don't see this as having anything to do with receiving or taking someone's positive or negative karma.

What benefits, if the suffering karma of that person could not be modified/influenced/transferred, and merit could not be shared in a real sense?


My posts on the sharing of merit:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6782&start=40#p81217
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6782&start=40#p81219
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:14 am

Sherab wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.

Assertion like this without providing explanations does not help move a discussion forward to a resolution and is merely an attempt to impose a particular viewpoint.


Numerous members here have provided citations from sutras in this discussion. What citations would you like to provide for your position?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:21 am

spanda wrote:
Pero wrote: Well for one thing long life practice coordinates the elements. So if you're doing LL practice for someone, you're helping to coordinate his elements. :D


How exactly? The person could be at 1000 km distances.

So?

The intent you say, but without merit sharing, and without any karmic seed/karmic effect being modified in any way by my practice, because that's impossible.

Mind is powerful. If someone can move objects with his mind for example, then he could also harm or help a sentient being through his mind alone. Perhaps by focusing on something particular or having a general intention. There is no need for there to be transfer of merit. The person being helped however, certainly needs merits to be helped. So if you helped someone it's not because you gave him merit but because that person already had merit of his own.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Pero » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:26 am

Also, if there would be such a thing as merit transfer, then it would be safe to assume there is also demerit transfer. Now wouldn't that be awesome? I could just come and say "hey Spanda here's my demerit, you deal with sucker! hahaha" and run away without having any negative karma anymore and into the god realm while poor you would drop into hell. :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:27 am

Mr. G wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.

Assertion like this without providing explanations does not help move a discussion forward to a resolution and is merely an attempt to impose a particular viewpoint.


Numerous members here have provided citations from sutras in this discussion. What citations would you like to provide for your position?

None, because I believe the sutras are silent on the point of not being able to take manifested results.
I've asked for quotations to show that manifested results cannot be remove from a being by another, just like the latency of an action of a person cannot be removed by the action of another but by himself.
I've also stated that vajrayana practices/customs point to the ability of giving and taking something that has been manifested. If one disagree with this, then one would be contradicting oneself if one follow vajrayana and should instead follow some other yana. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:37 am

Sherab wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.

Assertion like this without providing explanations does not help move a discussion forward to a resolution and is merely an attempt to impose a particular viewpoint. And I think no one here is really referring to the action karma or any latency but to the manifested results.



The Buddhas are free from experiencing the ripening of the result of karma [karmavipakaphala], hence it stands to reason they cannot take on the results of karma.

Birth in one of the six lokas is the manifested result of karma. Do you think Buddha can just place one in nirvana?
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:39 am

Sherab wrote:
I've asked for quotations to show that manifested results cannot be remove from a being by another...


How about "suffering cannot be removed with the hand..."

This is about as clear a citation as you can get.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:41 am

Sherab wrote:I've also stated that vajrayana practices/customs point to the ability of giving and taking something that has been manifested.



For example? What practices? Customs are not Dharma. They are customs. For example is was the custom in a part of Eastern Bhutan to slaughter animals for ganapujas until Kunzang Dechen Lingpa put an end to it.

N
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Re: "taking someone else's negative karma"

Postby spanda » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:44 am

Mr. G wrote:
spanda wrote: If karma (even if I use the term here only with the sense of consequences of the action), can not be taken/transferred, and the merit can not be shared in the real sense, than, it's completely useless to do a long life practice for someone who is ill.


How did you come to that conclusion? Have you read the previous pages on the sharing of merit? The idea of long life practices also has a place in the suttas, where Ananda could have requested Shakyamuni Buddha to remain through the end of a world period:

    3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

    4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

    5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent.

    6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you."

    "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away.

However, I don't see this as having anything to do with receiving or taking someone's positive or negative karma.

What benefits, if the suffering karma of that person could not be modified/influenced/transferred, and merit could not be shared in a real sense?


My posts on the sharing of merit:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6782&start=40#p81217
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6782&start=40#p81219


You sad:

"The person undergoing the Chod ceremony has the karma to be a human being and have sense organs which allow them to hear sacred prayers and mantras. They rejoice in this and receive merit which alleviates them of their problem." and "using my Chod example above where people are rejoicing in merit, then it's not that far fetched. Or looking at the Shakyamuni story regarding how Kassapa was healed, that is not far fetched."

Ok, but take the example of a person who is in a coma, at 10000 km. That person can't rejoice anything, it's far away, it is not present at the Chod ceremony. And , even if I am near him, he can listen any teaching (like in Sakyamuny example)
And Namdrol was very clear: "Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself."

So explain me very concretely how I can help a person who is in a coma at a 10000 km, with a long life practice. Because if it is like Namdrol sad, that the merit is not shared in the real sense, then the fact that I realize a long life practice (which is very efficient for me, I agree), doesn't help the person in a coma, because I can't share that merit with the sick person.
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