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 Post subject: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Design explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

Scientific evidence for design consists of:

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
2. The directiveness of living organisms.
3. The progressive nature of development.
4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

What are your views?


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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:29 pm 
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mint wrote:
Design explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

Scientific evidence for design consists of:

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
2. The directiveness of living organisms.
3. The progressive nature of development.
4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

What are your views?


"The variety of the world arises from karma."

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Who designed the designer?


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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:53 pm 
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mint wrote:
Design explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

Scientific evidence for design consists of:

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
2. The directiveness of living organisms.
3. The progressive nature of development.
4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

What are your views?


The Buddhist view of karma and beings having buddha nature really is the perfect answer to this, though it's obviously ignored by theists and materialists in the big debate on intelligent design.

Although I wouldn't say that life necesarily has a 'progressive development'.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
mint wrote:
Design explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

Scientific evidence for design consists of:

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
2. The directiveness of living organisms.
3. The progressive nature of development.
4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

What are your views?


"The variety of the world arises from karma."


Buddha defined karma as intentional or purposive (cetana) action; thus action/karma requires a being or beings. So the universe arises from beings.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Weak evidence.

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.

Lawfulness & predictability are not evidence for design. They are evidence for lawfulness & predictability.

2. The directiveness of living organisms.

Explain how living organisms are directive. e.g., what is the "point" of a jellyfish or the streaks of a lily

3. The progressive nature of development.

Unless you can actually show that development is somehow progressive, this is just a fantasy. Samsara is samsara. There is no "omega point."

4. The information system contained in the DNA code.

Again, this proves the existence of DNA, but is not sufficient in itself to prove that DNA is designed in some way.

5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.

It's not over yet.

6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.

Is the human brain the most complex phenomenon in the universe? even the most complex *known* phenomenon?

7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

This may prove the existence of Buddha-qualities, but is not in itself sufficient to show a design behind them.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:10 pm 
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There is no evidence of design. There is evidence of intelligence conceiving rules and a mystical designer.

Seriously, why not all these theists mention parasites, plagues, viruses and all the rest among the grand creations of an almighty benevolent god? "And God said, 'Let there be flesh-eating disease', and God saw that it was good."

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Seriously, why not all these theists mention parasites, plagues, viruses and all the rest among the grand creations of an almighty benevolent god? "And God said, 'Let there be flesh-eating disease', and God saw that it was good."


Dualistic thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:38 pm 
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If there is no evidence of the existence of a designer, there can be none for design.

What arises does so from past phenomena. As there is no evidence of an original creator or a defined 'start' to the universe, and ample evidence of continuous change, then I favour an eternal continuum within which beings continue, whilst species die out or thrive.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:40 pm 
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mint wrote:
Astus wrote:
Seriously, why not all these theists mention parasites, plagues, viruses and all the rest among the grand creations of an almighty benevolent god? "And God said, 'Let there be flesh-eating disease', and God saw that it was good."


Dualistic thinking.


In what context does this mean? Please elaborate.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Will wrote:

Buddha defined karma as intentional or purposive (cetana) action; thus action/karma requires a being or beings. So the universe arises from beings.


Correct, the universe arises from the actions of beings in it. Actions are motivated by afflictions. Afflictions arose from knowledge obscuration of ignorance The universe, therefore, arose from distant cause of ignorance.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:18 am 
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mint wrote:
The progressive nature of development.


Life / evolution is not always progressive. Some species have lost some 'positive' features, for example of loss of eyesight in moles and numerous other examples. The haphazard continuation is evidence that there is no design, no designer, other than natural causes, natural selection.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:20 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
The universe, therefore, arose from distant cause of ignorance.


just as long as this is not interpreted as a mistake, or something that needs to be "corrected"

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:22 am 
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When we look at natural laws and phenomena, we can only grasp these idea's and concepts from within our current understanding of science. For me however, it currently leaves much to be desired in regard to answers.

This does not justify leaping to the conclusion of intelligent design, but the possibility is still there imho. Only further scientific progress will tell us more.

I imagine one day human knowledge will advance to a point of complete and total mastery of the physical laws of the universe, at this point it is likely we ourselves, will be able to create universes.

Right now, we are developing AI technology that could one day lead to the creation of a sentient mechanical species -- it is disputed if this is even possible, but if we did achieve this feat. Wouldn't that make us gods of sorts ourselves?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, science is our lifeboat, our legacy and our way out of ignorance. It's saddening somewhat that we don't have a better understanding right now, but we will one day.

However, I believe we are capable of experiencing phenomena science has yet to research, and prove.. our spiritual experiences are not meaningless -- far from it in fact, and this is where I take my refuge. :heart: Dharma :heart:

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:08 am 
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mint wrote:
Design explains all the most important aspects of existence: truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, the order of the universe, the origin of life, the progressive development and existence of rational, autonomous, moral beings who have the capacity for unselfish love and the right to life, freedom and self-determination.

Scientific evidence for design consists of:

1. The laws of nature which are necessary for life and a rational existence.
2. The directiveness of living organisms.
3. The progressive nature of development.
4. The information system contained in the DNA code.
5. The survival of life despite overwhelming odds.
6. The development of the most complex phenomenon in the universe: the human brain.
7. The existence of rational, autonomous, moral and responsible beings with a capacity for unselfish love.

What are your views?

In science, design does not explain. It just happens. Why it happens? Science can only postulates, but the postulates do not require the postulation of a Designer.


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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:42 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:

Buddha defined karma as intentional or purposive (cetana) action; thus action/karma requires a being or beings. So the universe arises from beings.


Correct, the universe arises from the actions of beings in it. Actions are motivated by afflictions. Afflictions arose from knowledge obscuration of ignorance The universe, therefore, arose from distant cause of ignorance.

N


Ignorant beings, right? Therefore the imperfect nature of everything.

Design or pattern does not have to mean a conscious, deliberate "We shall plan & create a Universe". Our vasanas (for example) are sub-conscious, yet they give our life a pattern or tendency or design. There are many kinds of sentient or conscious or intelligent or wise beings in the Universe that produce karma-vipaka, from which arise realms of planets, stars etc.

No single supreme God or Being, but a network or combination of beings gives us the mark of intelligent design (not wise or buddha-like design) that is seen.

So intelligent design, Yes - Supreme Creator, No.

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Last edited by Will on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:42 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The universe, therefore, arose from distant cause of ignorance.


just as long as this is not interpreted as a mistake, or something that needs to be "corrected"



It needs to be corrected so that the universe will arise as the basis.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evidence for Design?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:45 am 
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Will wrote:
[

So intelligent design, Yes - Supreme Creator, No.


Design means to draw or create deliberately according to some plan -- but instead the universe arose because the blind force of the collective actions of ignorant sentient beings [from a previous universe]. So, no intelligence, no design and no creator.

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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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