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Is dukkha just psychological? - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Is dukkha just psychological?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sunrise
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Sunrise » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:45 am


curiousgeorge
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby curiousgeorge » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:35 am


PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:41 am

I agree curiousgeorge, but I fear that we are both wasting our time, There seems to be a basic inability to grasp even this simplified view of the Cartesian Split, among Buddhists. I have given up trying on this forum to make a point which is grasped without difficulty by first term medical students that I teach.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:55 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:15 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:17 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:18 am

Exactly Mike, and I pointed to the Khandas for a solution to the apparant " problem " some way back...

:anjali:

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:19 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:22 am

Last edited by PeterB on Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:24 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:27 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:30 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:35 am

I suggest porpoise that you have a look at the khandas and then Cartesian Dualism, and when you have done that you might have a clearer understanding .
Enough perhaps to pose a question that can actually be answered. At the moment your questions are not suffiently coherent to be able to reply to.

Sunrise
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Sunrise » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:55 pm


curiousgeorge
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby curiousgeorge » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:59 pm

[quote="mikenz66"
The common simile of a chariot actually does a poor job of getting this across, since you can take apart a chariot into wheels, etc. The apple simile is better, because you can't take an apple apart into "redness", "sweetness", and "softness".

So, you can analyse and action or an emotion into a "physical" and "mental" part, but you can't separate them. Hence this whole question of "is dukkha just psychological?" is problematical. In Buddhism there is no clean body + mind split. (And, it seems, not in modern psychology either, but I'm no expert on that).

I hope this is the point that you are trying to get across. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Mike[/quote]


In all fairness, there are a few things that make this harder to understand.

(1) Its more complex than this. You really can separate out the 'redness' from the 'sweetness'... someone who is colorblind does this. For someone who is not, under certain lighting, the light hitting the eye will no longer be red. This is where it gets more complex because that person will almost certainly see red even though the light does not suggest red. This idea of color constancy is one heuristic we employ to maintain a coherent consciousness, and it is a great example about how things get really confusing. Whose in charge? What if you see a yellow apple? or a Golden apple? Its not so easy.

This is why I usually take a different tack and talk about how the body actually does quite a lot of the processing. The body is part of the mind, and if you lose that part of the body, you lose the mental capability represented in that part of the mind. They are not separate at all. Any argument you can make to suggest that the body is different than the brain you can make about parts of the brain as well.

(2) The age of a person goes a long way as to determining how entrenched the philosophy of Dualism is. Just because younger generation med students (who have already had lots of coursework leading up to med school, and generally share certain characteristics) get it easily does not mean that someone coming from a different background, with different ideas, will get it easily. It also means that sometimes a different approach is necessary! :p

PeterB
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:04 pm

I readily concede your point 2 curiousgeorge, and of course agree with your first point.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:53 pm

Hi curiousgeorge,

Thanks for the interesting reply. As you say, any simile can break down. Your discussion of physical processes is helpful, but still suffers from the problem that many of the different processes you speak of could, at least in principle, be studied separately (the various cells, chemical reactions, etc).

The key thing I was trying to get across was the how the Buddha taught the aggregates. As I see it, being able to analyse an experience into different aspects doesn't mean that those aspects are little building blocks that could be separated. I think that implicit in many discussions I see is the underlying idea that "form", "feeling", "perception", "volition", and "consciousness" (or the other ways of slicing and dicing experience via elements or sense bases) are little objects that can be separated from each other. Whereas I take it that a single experience arises and one can classify it's aspects in terms of form, feeling, etc.

Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:37 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

curiousgeorge
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby curiousgeorge » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:39 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:30 am

Hi CG,

I look forward to further similes when you wake up...

:anjali:
Mike


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