Refuge in the Triple Jewel requires no preceptor, it never did. Who would be the precepter for taking refuge? If only monks then there are no Buddhists in Japan, nor one could get it from any lay teacher. By the way, don't you think if someone happened to find a sutra in a library and read it is karmic connection?
Transmission wasn't emphasised only when texts were rare but also when one could read the whole canon in the same monastery. And here this is not really about teachers generally but Zen masters defined by their lineage.
Yes, that is the idea. But as we can see, it is not the reality. Then what's the point of a transmission that has no value as it's lost its historical validity? Actually Chan was attacked on this part by the rival Tiantai school questioning the historicity of its lineage. Now that we can see clearly it is invalid shouldn't it be wise to respond to this situation instead of clinging to an unstable concept?
Astus wrote:Yes, that is the idea. But as we can see, it is not the reality. Then what's the point of a transmission that has no value as it's lost its historical validity? Actually Chan was attacked on this part by the rival Tiantai school questioning the historicity of its lineage. Now that we can see clearly it is invalid shouldn't it be wise to respond to this situation instead of clinging to an unstable concept?
"The leadership could presumably decide to change that doctrine however."
Astus wrote:"What are your credentials again?"
What credentials are you looking for from me? Please look at the opening post to see what this is about here.
Astus wrote:The weight of my opinion is open for scrutiny and argument.
The "current model" did not produce either Huangbo or Shengyan. What the model created is an imagined link (bloodline) connecting those two people to each other and back to Shakyamuni. My argument is exactly that this connection is non-existent in its historical sense of a teacher-disciple lineage. It's also good to note that Shengyan didn't really follow the Hongzhou school (what Huangbo belonged to) rhetoric of sudden enlightenment.
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Sutr ... structions
"Can you let us know for how many generations the Dharma has been transmitted, from the appearance of the earliest Buddha up to now?" asked the disciples.
"The Buddhas who have appeared in this world are too many to be counted," replied the Patriarch. "But let us start from the last seven Buddhas. They are:--
Of the last Kalpa, the Alamkarakalpa: Buddha Vipassin, Buddha Sikhin, Buddha Vessabhu.
Of the present Kalpa (the Bhadrakalpa): Buddha Kakusundha, Buddha Konagamana, Buddha Kassapa, Buddha Gautama (Sakyamuni).
"From the Buddha Sakyamuni, the Law was transmitted to the:
1st Patriarch Arya Mahakasyapa (It was then in turn transmitted to)
2nd Patriarch Arya Ananda
3rd Patriarch Arya Sanavasa
4th Patriarch Arya Upagupta
5th Patriarch Arya Dhritaka
6th Patriarch Arya Michaka
7th Patriarch Arya Vasumitra
8th Patriarch Arya Buddhanandi
9th Patriarch Arya Buddhamitra
10th Patriarch Arya Parsva
11th Patriarch Arya Punyayasas
12th Patriarch Bodhisattva Asvaghosa
13th Patriarch Arya Kapimala
14th Patriarch Bodhisattva Nagarjuna
15th Patriarch Kanadeva
16th Patriarch Arya Rahulata
17th Patriarch Arya Sanghanandi
18th Patriarch Arya Sangayasas
19th Patriarch Arya Kumarata
20th Patriarch Arya Jayata
21st Patriarch Arya Vasubandhu
22nd Patriarch Arya Manura
23rd Patriarch Arya Haklenayasas
24th Patriarch Arya Sinha
25th Patriarch Arya Vasiastia
26th Patriarch Arya Punyamitra
27th Patriarch Arya Prajnatara
28th Patriarch Arya Bodhidharma (the first Patriarch in China)
29th Patriarch Grand Master Hui Ke
30th Patriarch Grand Master Seng Can
31st Patriarch Grand Master Dao Xin
32nd Patriarch Grand Master Hung Ren
And I am the 33rd Patriarch (i.e.,the 6th Patriarch in China). Thus, by pupillary, the Dharma was handed down from one Patriarch to another. Hereafter, you men should in turn transmit it to posterity by passing it on from one generation to another, so that the tradition may be maintained.
Astus wrote:Zen has been advertised ever since as being an unbroken lineage from Shakyamuni Buddha up to the present. Actually it is severely broken in many parts. People claim reliability of Zen teachers based on their transmission (and not sutras or logical explanations of the Dharma for instance), therefore saying the source of such validity is forged must provoke a different view. Here I'm talking about the Western situation.
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