A third candidate

[conebeckham]

Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.

[kirtu]

Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.

Well that's not terribly auspicious and casts aspersions on unfortunate politics as well. OHHH - I misread this - I read: "At least half of them ...".

Did no one track the alternative candidates historically? Since they were viewed at least for a time as potentially special Bodhisattvas one would think that the majority might have done great things.

Kirt

[conebeckham]

Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.

Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.

[kirtu]

Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.

Looks like Samuel (Australian professor of anthropology, "Civilized Shamans") at least partially addresses this. The best case would be seeing namthars on alternative high lama candidates.

Kirt

[gregkavarnos]

Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....

I heard it in reference to one of the candidates for 16th Karmapa.

It's ugly, it's barbaric, it's Tibetan politics! It's got NOTHING to do with Buddhism.

[Konchog1]

Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.

You mean like Dmitri Ivanovich who was playing with a knife by throwing it up into the sky and accidentally stabbed himself . . . a good dozen times?

[byamspa]

Why is there any sort of problem w/more than one? Thought there could be body, speech,mind, qualities and activity emanations?

[conebeckham]

I don't think we want to get into the issue too much...but there's always been "one" recognized incarnation of the Karmapa, despite the possibility of infinite manifestations. There are prophecies, and termas, and even statements by the prior Karmapas, to this effect, I think. I'd suggest people google, do their research, if they want answers to that question--

[Sönam]

It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ...

Sönam

[daelm]

Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.

the first choice for the sixteenh, actually. Rangjung Rigpe Dorje was then enthroned as a replacement, with the usual controversy, iirc.


d

[daelm]

Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.

see Dalai Lama's 7 through 12, roughly, for examples of such.

Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.

there's another issue, now, that makes this interesting, in that both candidates are effectively enthroned (albeit to different groups) and are therefore actively recognising tulkus. so there are, for example, two Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's, and you can expect there to be further bifurcation.


d

[kirtu]

It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ...

Sönam

Surely this was not meant seriously. Electing lineage heads? I could see rotating lineage heads amoungst a specific set of vetted tulkus but not electing them.

Kirt

[kirtu]

Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.

see Dalai Lama's 7 through 12, roughly, for examples of such.

We have to constrain this to the 9-12. 7 and 8 lived to their 50's. The 7th DL is quite important in history; his activity was primarily meditative and tantric. The 8th is unfairly forgotten but his activity was primarily ordaining monks and presumably strengthening monastic discipline. The 9-12 DL's died young.

... and are therefore actively recognising tulkus. so there are, for example, two Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's, and you can expect there to be further bifurcation.

Just different tulku lineages from different masters is well-established in TBist history. A good example of resolution is in Bhutanese history.

Kirt

[Sönam]

It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ...

Sönam

Surely this was not meant seriously. Electing lineage heads? I could see rotating lineage heads amoungst a specific set of vetted tulkus but not electing them.

Kirt

It was, of course not meant seriously ... nevertheless, as everything is perfect from the beginning, etc, the "election" of a tulku could have some value, not to be rejected straight away ... But of course this is only an intellectuel view.

Sönam

[catmoon]

Hmm. It's an interesting thought... if the tulkus were given like a 1 year probationary period, followed by a mass vote of the sangha to verify them, I wonder how many would pass. Of course if you did that, soon there would be campaigns and politicking and.... yuk.

[Josef]

The problem is really the political significance of the "office" of Karmapa.
Without the political significance the Karmapa could manifest multiple emanations and it probably wouldnt be an issue.
Take the Khyentse lineage for example. There are multiple emanations of Khyentse Wangpo and they are exceptional teachers.
The difference is that they are not really political roles.
There is no political office of "Khyentse".

[YesheDron'May]

Hm. has anyone considered the possibility of a Katmapa?

Ahh yes , I firmly beleave in the great Catmappa each day I honour him by meditating in a curled up position between frequent naps . It seems to be working ....

[YesheDron'May]

Which one lives with HH The Dali Lama and which one is the one the chinese claim to be the Karmapa ?

[gregkavarnos]

Which one lives with HH The Dali Lama and which one is the one the chinese claim to be the Karmapa ?

The Karmapa that lives with the Dalai Lama (was ratified by him) is the same one that the Chinese Government has also "chosen": Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje.

Dalai Lama and Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje.jpg (7.15 KiB) Viewed 440 times

[conebeckham]

I'm going to object to the word "Chosen."

I think it's more appropriate to say that the PRC also "ratified" Orgyen Tinley Dorje (your word for the invlovement of HH The Dalai Lama, and it's an approrpirate one I think....) after he was found by the search party.