A third candidate

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conebeckham
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Re: A third candidate

Post by conebeckham »

Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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kirtu
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Re: A third candidate

Post by kirtu »

conebeckham wrote:Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.
Well that's not terribly auspicious and casts aspersions on unfortunate politics as well. OHHH - I misread this - I read: "At least half of them ...".

Did no one track the alternative candidates historically? Since they were viewed at least for a time as potentially special Bodhisattvas one would think that the majority might have done great things.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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conebeckham
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Re: A third candidate

Post by conebeckham »

Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.

Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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kirtu
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Re: A third candidate

Post by kirtu »

conebeckham wrote: Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.
Looks like Samuel (Australian professor of anthropology, "Civilized Shamans") at least partially addresses this. The best case would be seeing namthars on alternative high lama candidates.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Grigoris
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Grigoris »

conebeckham wrote:Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....
I heard it in reference to one of the candidates for 16th Karmapa.

It's ugly, it's barbaric, it's Tibetan politics! It's got NOTHING to do with Buddhism.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Konchog1
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Konchog1 »

conebeckham wrote:Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.
You mean like Dmitri Ivanovich who was playing with a knife by throwing it up into the sky and accidentally stabbed himself . . . a good dozen times?
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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
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byamspa
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Re: A third candidate

Post by byamspa »

Why is there any sort of problem w/more than one? Thought there could be body, speech,mind, qualities and activity emanations?
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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conebeckham
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Re: A third candidate

Post by conebeckham »

I don't think we want to get into the issue too much...but there's always been "one" recognized incarnation of the Karmapa, despite the possibility of infinite manifestations. There are prophecies, and termas, and even statements by the prior Karmapas, to this effect, I think. I'd suggest people google, do their research, if they want answers to that question--
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Sönam
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Sönam »

It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ... :popcorn:

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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daelm
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Re: A third candidate

Post by daelm »

conebeckham wrote:Kirt-
At least one of them fell off a roof.
the first choice for the sixteenh, actually. Rangjung Rigpe Dorje was then enthroned as a replacement, with the usual controversy, iirc.


d
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Re: A third candidate

Post by daelm »

conebeckham wrote:Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.
see Dalai Lama's 7 through 12, roughly, for examples of such.


conebeckham wrote:Would be interesting to see if there are any written histories that comment on multiple candidates in the past, and their fates...but frankly, history is always "partial," and often "revisionist," so....not sure we'll know for sure.
there's another issue, now, that makes this interesting, in that both candidates are effectively enthroned (albeit to different groups) and are therefore actively recognising tulkus. so there are, for example, two Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's, and you can expect there to be further bifurcation.


d
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Re: A third candidate

Post by kirtu »

Sönam wrote:It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ... :popcorn:

Sönam
Surely this was not meant seriously. Electing lineage heads? I could see rotating lineage heads amoungst a specific set of vetted tulkus but not electing them.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: A third candidate

Post by kirtu »

daelm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Honestly, I can't recall where I heard that little comment....and I agree, it's not a pleasant scenario. It may have been mere speculation....but it's obviously not outside the realm of the possible, for anyone who knows anything at all about Tibetan political machinations.
see Dalai Lama's 7 through 12, roughly, for examples of such.
We have to constrain this to the 9-12. 7 and 8 lived to their 50's. The 7th DL is quite important in history; his activity was primarily meditative and tantric. The 8th is unfairly forgotten but his activity was primarily ordaining monks and presumably strengthening monastic discipline. The 9-12 DL's died young.
... and are therefore actively recognising tulkus. so there are, for example, two Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's, and you can expect there to be further bifurcation.
Just different tulku lineages from different masters is well-established in TBist history. A good example of resolution is in Bhutanese history.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Sönam
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Sönam »

kirtu wrote:
Sönam wrote:It is clear than in our modern world, karmapas must be democratically elected ... :popcorn:

Sönam
Surely this was not meant seriously. Electing lineage heads? I could see rotating lineage heads amoungst a specific set of vetted tulkus but not electing them.

Kirt
It was, of course not meant seriously ... nevertheless, as everything is perfect from the beginning, etc, the "election" of a tulku could have some value, not to be rejected straight away ... But of course this is only an intellectuel view.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: A third candidate

Post by catmoon »

Hmm. It's an interesting thought... if the tulkus were given like a 1 year probationary period, followed by a mass vote of the sangha to verify them, I wonder how many would pass. Of course if you did that, soon there would be campaigns and politicking and.... yuk.
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Josef »

The problem is really the political significance of the "office" of Karmapa.
Without the political significance the Karmapa could manifest multiple emanations and it probably wouldnt be an issue.
Take the Khyentse lineage for example. There are multiple emanations of Khyentse Wangpo and they are exceptional teachers.
The difference is that they are not really political roles.
There is no political office of "Khyentse".
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: A third candidate

Post by YesheDron'May »

catmoon wrote:Hm. has anyone considered the possibility of a Katmapa?
Ahh yes , I firmly beleave in the great Catmappa each day I honour him by meditating in a curled up position between frequent naps . It seems to be working ....
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Re: A third candidate

Post by YesheDron'May »

Which one lives with HH The Dali Lama and which one is the one the chinese claim to be the Karmapa ?
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Re: A third candidate

Post by Grigoris »

YesheDron'May wrote:Which one lives with HH The Dali Lama and which one is the one the chinese claim to be the Karmapa ?
The Karmapa that lives with the Dalai Lama (was ratified by him) is the same one that the Chinese Government has also "chosen": Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje.
Dalai Lama and Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje.jpg
Dalai Lama and Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje.jpg (7.15 KiB) Viewed 4534 times
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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conebeckham
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Re: A third candidate

Post by conebeckham »

I'm going to object to the word "Chosen."

I think it's more appropriate to say that the PRC also "ratified" Orgyen Tinley Dorje (your word for the invlovement of HH The Dalai Lama, and it's an approrpirate one I think....) after he was found by the search party.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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