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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm 
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mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
Greg,

I care little for the gun debate. I don't own a gun, although I enjoy skeet shooting as a leisure activity, and don't plan on owning a gun.

However, I do often avoid threads once you post in them because the hyperbolic quality of your posts tends to contribute to a less than hospitable environment for discussion. Labeling someone a "gun nut", for example, or accusing them of engaging in "emotional blackmail" is an example of this hyperbole and shows a disrespect for other posters who may disagree with your opinions.
Maybe I was not clear, I meant that the poster (the graphic, not the person that posted the poster) was made by gun nuts and that the content utilises emotional blackmail: A beautiful frail white girl with HUGE AK asks if it is okay to protect herself from the nasty thugs, that hide in every shadow, threatening her life - if that is not emotional blackmail, then what is??? Where is the hyperbolic in that statement? Maybe you are overreacting?
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:53 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
And what of the gun nut poster? It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?


Not a shining example of moderation either.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
And what of the gun nut poster? It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?


Not a shining example of moderation either.


Huh? Not sure what that is supposed to mean?

Good moderation is to allow all sides to have their say. I haven't moderated or censored anyone's posts here in this thread or others, including the ad hom and emotional ones against me or others.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:30 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
I'm not a big fan of assault weapons, I just liked the words in that photo. It would have been more effective or better, imo, if she was holding a handgun. And then it would satisfy the other concerns you mention in your post. A handgun can easily be concealed and tucked away in a purse.


This is an important point. I wish handguns were more effective as weapons. Generally, if you need your sidearm, you are in deep, deep trouble already. (thus have I heard from a gun safety instructor).

It's very difficult to generalize about firearms and the appropriateness of their use. Perhaps it's best to use the "work with your circumstances" mantra in such matters... with a "be prepared to face the consequences of your decisions" proviso.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:40 pm 
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War and peace start in the hearts of individuals. Strangely enough, although all beings would like to live in peace, our method for obtaining peace over the generations seems not be very effective: we seek peace and happiness by going to war.


-Pema Chodron, opening lines of "Practicing Peace in Times of War"

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:42 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
And what of the gun nut poster? It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?


Not a shining example of moderation either.


Huh? Not sure what that is supposed to mean?

Good moderation is to allow all sides to have their say. I haven't moderated or censored anyone's posts here in this thread or others, including the ad hom and emotional ones against me or others.


I think the word "moderation" was used in another context:

    It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:49 pm 
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come on, how many here have actually been in a situation where they wish they had a gun? (and i dont mean the last time someone cut you off on the road and you wish you had a RPG to take them and their car out (not that i have any experience with a situation like that :tongue: ))

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Mr. G wrote:
I think the word "moderation" was used in another context:

    It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?


You could be right. It could also be referring to the fact that an assault weapon is not very 'moderate' in which case I would agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:55 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
come on, how many here have actually been in a situation where they wish they had a gun?


:hi:

Yes, I have.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:55 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
come on, how many here have actually been in a situation where they wish they had a gun? (and i dont mean the last time someone cut you off on the road and you wish you had a RPG to take them and their car out (not that i have any experience with a situation like that :tongue: ))


Sure, the time I had to run to escape from a mugger in Seattle (on my way downtown after a Chenrezig practice at Sakya Monastery, the happy squeaking of a certain yogini's prayer wheel still in my mind)...

that's the first that comes to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Everybody.....breathe :meditate:

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:57 pm 
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one of my teachers had to fight his way out of his monastery during the invasion of central tibet in '59. he hurt and killed people to save his life. he says in retrospect, knowing what he knows now about dependent origination and bodhicitta, that he let them kill him. that's my aspiration. if i am attacked and i can not avert the attack in a non-lethal fashion, that i am capable of surrendering my life with out regret and without anger. no guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:00 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
And what of the gun nut poster? It is not extreme, right? It's a balanced, moderate and objective view, right?


Not a shining example of moderation either.


Huh? Not sure what that is supposed to mean?

Good moderation is to allow all sides to have their say. I haven't moderated or censored anyone's posts here in this thread or others, including the ad hom and emotional ones against me or others.



Not that moderation. More in the line of "everything in moderation".

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
come on, how many here have actually been in a situation where they wish they had a gun? (and i dont mean the last time someone cut you off on the road and you wish you had a RPG to take them and their car out (not that i have any experience with a situation like that :tongue: ))


Sure, the time I had to run to escape from a mugger in Seattle (on my way downtown after a Chenrezig practice at Sakya Monastery, the happy squeaking of a certain yogini's prayer wheel still in my mind)...

that's the first that comes to mind.


so, ignoring the possibility that he would have immediately taken it away from you and used it on you, if you had had a gun, what would you have done? shown it to him? what if he pulled his own gun out as a response? would you have then shot at him? see my point? i think you did better running away.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Not that moderation. More in the line of "everything in moderation".


Okay, thanks for the clarification.

:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:10 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Jikan wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
come on, how many here have actually been in a situation where they wish they had a gun? (and i dont mean the last time someone cut you off on the road and you wish you had a RPG to take them and their car out (not that i have any experience with a situation like that :tongue: ))


Sure, the time I had to run to escape from a mugger in Seattle (on my way downtown after a Chenrezig practice at Sakya Monastery, the happy squeaking of a certain yogini's prayer wheel still in my mind)...

that's the first that comes to mind.


so, ignoring the possibility that he would have immediately taken it away from you and used it on you, if you had had a gun, what would you have done? shown it to him? what if he pulled his own gun out as a response? would you have then shot at him? see my point? i think you did better running away.


I didn't say I was was for wishing I was armed. The reason I did, though, was because I didn't know where I was running to (into another mugging?), and I'd injured my ankle in getting away. Fortunately I was able to gimp back to the hotel, so it's all the same anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Off-Topic posts removed - carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:16 pm 
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For what it is worth I live in a country where generally people do not own guns. Having been sexually abused by my father, gang raped and physically and mentally abused for years by a partner, not once did I ever wish I had a gun neither did I perform any act of retaliation. I have understood from any early age that there are consequences to actions I perform and committing a violent act on another human being (even in the form of self defence) never occurred to me. I am still breathing. The worst someone can do is kill me, so what? ... I am a Buddhist practitioner.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Tara wrote:
The worst someone can do is kill me, so what? ... I am a Buddhist practitioner.


That's what I'm talking about. Real Dharma fearlessness.

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 Post subject: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:54 pm 
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Nemo wrote:
Throwing people against objects is admittedly one of my signature moves. Corners of walls, car mirrors, other attackers, cement pylons and my personal favourite parking meters. I don’t like getting my hands dirty. I of course prefer choke holds like the sleeper, but what can you do. Fighting is about improvising. But I am working hard to flush this garbage out of my mindstream. I did feel bad about the last fight I got into with a fellow soldier. A month later he kicked a homeless man to death. Then I didn’t feel so bad throwing him onto that cement retaining wall.


Oh wow. I am soooo impressed. What planet are you on?

You are on a Buddhist forum. If you want to boast about your 9th Dan instructor in 'wtf' as if his prowess makes you an expert, or boast about your 'signature techniques' then pleeeze go to Bullshido martial arts forum. The genuine fighters there may eat you alive, or pay you a visit - yup, they do that sort of thing.

At least two of us on this thread could boast 'I'm a Dan grade in several martial arts, have military creds, and my teacher was an 8th/10th Dan' and play top trumps with you. Like you say, it's tough when your signature techniques need a parking meter or a pylon and there are simply none around in the desert or the mountains when you need them. The OP, in the wild, must be really grateful for the advice. In the UK we say 'Bollards'.

Here on DW, I think your views on Buddhist aspects of armed combat may be of more interest. I'm not a Mod but your boasting is entertaining but hardly of any topical relevance, even of the topic were self-defence. Chill, it's not a competition, which is good as I'm too old to fight and too old to care. ;)

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