Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:27 am

I guess it's early days yet. The day when it's deeply rooted and likes of Alan Watt and Stephen Bachelor have lost their power to confuse new leaners!

sighhhhh :)
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Re: You know you're...

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:09 pm

Huseng wrote:You should visit Komazawa University. There is a lot of modernism and self-identifying Zen Buddhists there and not so much zazen going on.


It might sound strange, but seated meditation hasn't been the focus of Zen in most of its lineages and teachings.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: You know you're...

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:29 pm

Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:You should visit Komazawa University. There is a lot of modernism and self-identifying Zen Buddhists there and not so much zazen going on.


It might sound strange, but seated meditation hasn't been the focus of Zen in most of its lineages and teachings.


Well, as I've said here before, I think Zen has largely been a literary movement.
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:All teachings spring from dzogchen, it is the source of all teachings, and the place to which all teachings return.

N


hi Namdrol, this is an interesting statement. when you say it, are you meaning all Vajrayana teachings, all tantric teachings or all Buddhadharma teachings, period? if the latter, care to elaborate a little in layman's terms? cheers.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:31 pm

dumbbombu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:All teachings spring from dzogchen, it is the source of all teachings, and the place to which all teachings return.

N


hi Namdrol, this is an interesting statement. when you say it, are you meaning all Vajrayana teachings, all tantric teachings or all Buddhadharma teachings, period? if the latter, care to elaborate a little in layman's terms? cheers.


All dharma teachings. All dharma teachings arise from the need to educate people about their real state. That real state is called "Dzogchen". Some teachings are more direct, some are less so, but in the end, that is the state they are all pointing at, whether directly or indirectly.

Of course, dzogchen teachings temselves point to this state in the most direct way.
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:All teachings spring from dzogchen, it is the source of all teachings, and the place to which all teachings return.

N


hi Namdrol, this is an interesting statement. when you say it, are you meaning all Vajrayana teachings, all tantric teachings or all Buddhadharma teachings, period? if the latter, care to elaborate a little in layman's terms? cheers.


All dharma teachings. All dharma teachings arise from the need to educate people about their real state. That real state is called "Dzogchen".


gotcha, thanks. so would it be fair to say Dzogchen views all schools favourably then although it perhaps views itself as the pinnacle or ultimate?
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:38 pm

dumbbombu wrote:
gotcha, thanks. so would it be fair to say Dzogchen views all schools favourably then although it perhaps views itself as the pinnacle or ultimate?



Dzogchen regards all vehicles favorably and perceives itself as the final meaning of all Buddhist, as well as non-Buddhist, teachings.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Dzogchen regards all vehicles favorably and perceives itself as the final meaning of all Buddhist, as well as non-Buddhist, teachings.


cool, thanks for the info.

as well as non-Buddhist,


really? mind blown a little i have to say! i'll enquire further about this when i'm a bit less tired and know what it is i want to ask exactly. sorry for taking things a tad :offtopic: everyone.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen regards all vehicles favorably and perceives itself as the final meaning of all Buddhist, as well as non-Buddhist, teachings.

Isn't that the same thing what most other Mahayana schools are teaching? If all Dharma gates are equal, why does it sound like your trying to say Dzogchen is da best au? Know wat im sayin?
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Re: You know you're...

Postby Astus » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:55 am

Huseng wrote:Well, as I've said here before, I think Zen has largely been a literary movement.


Actually, if you think about, there's lot more to Zen than its literature. It has unique ritualistic aspects, organisational forms, etc.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Astus » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:56 am

Thug4lyfe wrote:Isn't that the same thing what most other Mahayana schools are teaching? If all Dharma gates are equal, why does it sound like your trying to say Dzogchen is da best au? Know wat im sayin?


Sectarian thinking never becomes outdated.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:46 pm

Astus wrote:
Thug4lyfe wrote:Isn't that the same thing what most other Mahayana schools are teaching? If all Dharma gates are equal, why does it sound like your trying to say Dzogchen is da best au? Know wat im sayin?


Sectarian thinking never becomes outdated.



Some people might think that is what is behind my statement, but they would be mistaken.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Beatzen » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:18 pm

I don't think what N is saying is sectarian. He's probably right, though anyone (like me) who isn't a tantric yogi(ni) would never know otherwise.

That's what makes it seem sectarian.

Personally, I think Satipatthana is the essence of all dharma paths, both hina and mahayana.

Then again, I'm a student of zen, so I take the path as result instead of the result as path.
"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:29 pm

dumbbombu wrote:
really?


Really.

Though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.


--Rig pa rang shar tantra, the main explanatory tantra of Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:
really?


Really.

Though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.


--Rig pa rang shar tantra, the main explanatory tantra of Dzogchen.


Wow.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Virgo » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:50 pm

Beatzen wrote:I don't think what N is saying is sectarian. He's probably right, though anyone (like me) who isn't a tantric yogi(ni) would never know otherwise.

That's what makes it seem sectarian.

Personally, I think Satipatthana is the essence of all dharma paths, both hina and mahayana.

Then again, I'm a student of zen, so I take the path as result instead of the result as path.

There is no Satipatthana of any kind without learning. Everything stems from learning.

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:07 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:
really?


Really.

Though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.


--Rig pa rang shar tantra, the main explanatory tantra of Dzogchen.


Wow.


isn't it! i'm going to start a new thread to go into this a bit deeper.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Western Buddhists, modernity and the European enlightenment

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:29 pm

Thug4lyfe wrote:I guess it's early days yet. The day when it's deeply rooted and likes of Alan Watt and Stephen Bachelor have lost their power to confuse new leaners!

sighhhhh :)


Not everything that Alan Watts wrote and said was misleading. I think one of the most beneficial things I picked up from him was "meditate because you like meditating" - for no other purpose.
"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
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Re: You know you're...

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:14 pm

Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:You should visit Komazawa University. There is a lot of modernism and self-identifying Zen Buddhists there and not so much zazen going on.


It might sound strange, but seated meditation hasn't been the focus of Zen in most of its lineages and teachings.


But it has been with some particular teachers throughout Zen history.

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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: You know you're...

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 pm

Huseng wrote:
Astus wrote:
Huseng wrote:You should visit Komazawa University. There is a lot of modernism and self-identifying Zen Buddhists there and not so much zazen going on.


It might sound strange, but seated meditation hasn't been the focus of Zen in most of its lineages and teachings.


Well, as I've said here before, I think Zen has largely been a literary movement.


:zzz: (has the bell rung yet?)

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