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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment - Page 8 - Dhamma Wheel

Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 4:30 am


nathan
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 4:40 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 5:09 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 5:50 am

Five impossibilities, to wit, for an arahant intentionally to take life, or to take what is not given, so as to amount to theft, or to commit sexual offense, or to lie deliberately, or to spend stored-up treasure in worldly enjoyments, as in the days before he left the world. MN - I.523

. . . the arhant monk . . . cannot transgress nine standards: a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, cannot deliberately take life of any living thing; cannot, with intention steal, take that which is not given; cannot engage in carnal intercourse; cannot intentionally tell a lie; cannot enjoy pleasures from savings, as of yore when a householder; . . . cannot go astray through desire, cannot go astray through hate; cannot go astray through delusion; cannot go astray through fear. AN IV.370.

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Pannapetar » Wed May 26, 2010 5:59 am

My instincts tell me "fake". The text from Ingram's website that tiltbillings quoted is a giveaway. Also, I don't believe that Arahats write books, go for a "householder" lifestyle, or post on the Internet. Ingram may have had significant realisations, but probably not arahantship.

Cheers, Thomas

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 6:07 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 8:37 am


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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed May 26, 2010 10:45 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby bodom » Wed May 26, 2010 3:09 pm

Hi Nathan

You compare a statement I made to "advice Mara would give" and then defend a man who makes claims such as those posted above? My point is not that enlightened individuals will cut themselves off from society, to a certain extent they do, but that they will not be out to promote themselves, to write best selling books, to gain notoriety. Some of the most "famous" monks of the past century did not write books or travel the country preaching the Dhamma to the "masses". There fame grew around them not with in them. Dhutanga monks, forest monks teachings were spread by word of mouth, there teachings were recorded and distributed by there disciples and lay disciples. And if certain monks did become "famous" for the books they wrote ie. Ledi Sayadaw, it was only to promote the Dhamma. An ariya's teaching should become bigger than the ariya themself. Not the other way around.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Thu May 27, 2010 6:05 am

I apologize for the coarseness and looseness of my remarks, real or perceived. I can't and won't defend Daniel's views. That he can, will and should do so himself was my only real point. There is no need to demonstrate that his views do not accord with the Pali cannon, traditional interpretations or conventional Theravada thinking. That much is obvious. Given the latitude extended to iconoclastic thought of many kinds in the Dhammic free for-all forum I've been surprised that the views, opinions and attitudes Daniel has expressed have been more casually dismissed. There is an obvious contrast between the superficiality of this topic's treatment as opposed to the exhaustive (exhausting?) detail and attention devoted to other equally iconoclastic or heretical views. There is a complete parallel and greater irony in the ways that those who's views adhere to Theravada orthodoxy are similarly tried and found profoundly lacking in absentia elsewhere. I will continue my search for a venue which is willing to raise the bar in these regards but until then I will continue to accept and abide as best as I can by the terms and conventions of the online communities I do visit. Again, I apologize for offending anyone or for failing to fully conform to everyone's expectations.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 27, 2010 6:17 am


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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 27, 2010 8:03 am


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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby smokey » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:13 pm

I went to his forum and asked him is there heaven and hell. He got upset. I requested him to delete me from his forum and he deleted me. How can an Arahant get upset and I do not remember that the Buddha refused to teach anyone even if they insisted that they do not wish to be thought. If someone rejected the Order of Sangha, the Buddha would preach them sermons to persuade them to come back. I still cannot understand this guy. The Buddha said: "How can wrong-doing remain if the mind is transformed?".

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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:30 pm

Bump

SamKR
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby SamKR » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:13 pm

After reading something about Daniel in his website, I just want to quote the following from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 2.html#Tun :

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

If you modify the definition, then you can be anyone, anything. It's just that easy.
If you wish you can meet so many people who claim this or that status just by modifying or restating the definition of an ideal status (especially in India, Nepal etc.). The only difference is that most of those people cannot publicize them (except a few who can impress mass of people by miracles, or who are financially in better position to publish books).
Many years ago I read a book (in Nepali) by a self-proclaimed "sotapanna" in Nepal describing how he attained that level. Though I didn't like his way of making public of his attainments, for me that book was more convincing than Daniel's. At least his definition of sotapanna was not very different from that of the Buddha.

If an Arahant is really someone as described by Daniel here: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml, then I really don't want to make effort to be that "Arahat" eventually, I don't want to pursue the teachings of the Buddha; I already had been taught enough of better things in my family's religion: Hinduism/Vedic religion.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:35 pm


SamKR
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby SamKR » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:45 am

Last edited by SamKR on Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:37 pm


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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:55 pm

Just an aside: I might claim to be a sotapanna, but at least my description of what a sotapanna actually is is in line with the Buddha's teaching.

That's all I'll say.

Kevin


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tiltbillings
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:12 pm



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