Dechen Norbu wrote:Clarence, you say put her down because you don't want the animal to suffer, right? You believe it will ease the pain if the being dies.
Well, pain killers do just that and you give the animal a better death. This is not a matter of imposing beliefs, but of avoiding the risks that a certain action carries.
You can't be sure what will happen after death. What you know is that if you kill the animal, any chance of helping it will be lost as you won't be able to make contact with it.
If the purpose is to avoid pain and for such effect you recommend death, I say better using pain killers. You get the same effect plus the possibility of taking care of the animal until its life ends. It's quite stressful for the animal to be killed in a strange environment in the vet's room. If she manages to keep the pain away and allows a more tranquil death in a known environment, I think that would be better.
Clarence wrote:Dechen Norbu, I understand where you are coming from and know your view is the best Buddhist opinion. However, I don't agree with it.
How do you mean that? If we can make contact by eating meat, surely we can make contact with an animal we loved all its live.
Not all animals have stress when they are put down. I lived on a farm for many years and the experiences vary widely. Not all pain can be kept away by pain killers. Also, pain can make both humans and animals depressed and extremely agitated, which brings me to the main reason to say "put her down". Namely, I think putting her down will make the transition into the Bardo easier (since the mind will be calmer) and thus better.
I look at it like this: If I get to be old, I also don't want to continue living if my mind gives in. I truly believe it would be better for me to die while I can still remember to recite mantras, rest in the natural state, do Phowa or whatever. Dying with delusions or extreme foggy-ness due to painkillers just seems wrong.
Yes, maybe I will have to experience a little more suffering in the next life but maybe I will be realized in the Bardo. Without a memory or working mind of the Dharma there is no chance. At least, I think so.
Of course, I am totally open to any and all corrections/suggestions. I don't know whether or not I will change my views but I am keeping an open mind.
Dechen Norbu wrote:You're free to do so.
It's not the same. By eating meat you create a karmic debt with the dead being that will bare its effect later. You don't kill it (that, done by enlightened beings is liberation, beyond our capacities). You just create a debt with the already dead being.
What I meant is that if you allow the vet to kill the animal, you lose the possibility to help it right now, when the being is in pain.
Im not talking about what happens to all animals. My experience tells me they are usually agitated when they go to the vet.
It's right that some animals (humans and non humans) have paradoxical effects when under the effect of pain killers, but usually sedation calms the organism. That is always possible if you use the correct sedative. There are plenty available in the market.
Of course the sedation has effects when a being enters the bardo, but it's better sedation than stress unless one is an advanced practitioner. This is clearly not the case of the bunny.
When you get old you'll do as you please. The bunny didn't express an opinion, so it's not safe to assume it wants the same you do when you are older. What were you saying about pushing our beliefs?
Not all pain killers result in extreme fuzziness. Extreme pain main be worse. In the case of an animal, pain killers are helpful because they can't practice. So sedating them and providing them a calm death in a place they know and like, in the company of their human friends seems more compassionate than killing them.
Usually we put animals down because we can't stand our own pain of watching them die and want it all to end fast. I'm not saying this is your case, by any means!
We often rationalize it was a compassionate action, but we need to check this twice. Of course many people believe that they are putting an end to suffering and only want to protect the animal, but pain can be lessened with correct medication. By hasting death, we really don't know what will happen.
Clarence wrote:Thank you.
I think I understand. However, if you continue that logic further, then you shouldn't give pain killers either as the animal then will also not fully experience the fruit of his/her karma. It is on pain killers and thus not suffering.
Still, some will be agitated and some won't. And, I don't know about where Inge lives but here the vet will come to the house to put the animal down. Yes, you are probably right there are enough sedatives which calm. I have no experience with pain killers or sedatives--neither personally nor profesionally--so I believe you. How does sedation effect beings in the Bardo? I am sure it does something but I would not know what exactly. You probably received more teachings on the subject than I did.
Touché. But... putting an animal down is generally accepted practice. Keeping it alive and let it die by itself is not (at least not to my knowledge). I guess my main reason for arguing the opposite of most Buddhist views is that I don't want Inge to feel guilty no matter what she decides. Life sucks.
Yes, but putting them down equals a calm death to me. I think it is possible.
Well, you are probably right. No offense taken by the way. I am aware my view might not be in complete agreement with Buddhist orthodoxy and is probably caused because I leave a tiny speck of room for the possibility that life just ends when we die. Not really but just in case.
Checking our motivations is always a good thing. I agree with your last sentence contrary though it may seem in light of the rest of my post.
I wonder about more thing though. Often, though not in this case, we have extended the lives of our animals by a lot of medical means previously unavailable. They would be long gone if it weren't for the pills we give them twice/thrice a day. So, don't you think that when they become really sick, since we actually extended their life and thus causing them more suffering, we should be the ones to take responsibility and decide to end it as well. However hard this may be?
Anyway, Inge, whatever you decide is right. Your motivation is pure and your rabbit is in great hands. Om Mani Padme Hum for your rabbit.
Dechen Norbu wrote:Just be sure you give it adequate pain killers and antibiotics in the appropriate dose for its weight. Otherwise they won't help much by one side or you end up killing the rabbit yourself by the other. Were you properly informed about the dosages by the vet?
Dechen Norbu wrote:It's very hard to say.
I think your choice was right.
Pain killers help in this situation and I assume it will be better for your pet to be around someone who cares.
Putting a being to death is just the ending of the current problems. As the materialistic approach assumes that all ends with death, pain would also end.
However, according to the Buddhist perspective, particularly the Tibetan schools, such is not the case. A death in a strange environment, stressful, can launch the being to a nasty experience in the bardo.
So if your bunny dies in a calm environment, with minimal pain and being good taken care of, that would be good.
Perhaps you even save it, who knows?
Clarence wrote:I say to put her down. You can make such decisions for yourself (i.e. you want to suffer through the karma) but I don't think you can nor should make that decision for other beings. Just like I believe Christians should not be able to prohibit abortion for others just because they believe it is a sin.
Inge wrote:Clarence wrote:I say to put her down. You can make such decisions for yourself (i.e. you want to suffer through the karma) but I don't think you can nor should make that decision for other beings. Just like I believe Christians should not be able to prohibit abortion for others just because they believe it is a sin.
If this is so, as all beings suffer, then why don't kill everybody?
But do you think it is better to force someone to take abortion?
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