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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:59 pm 
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AdmiralJim wrote:
I find it amusing when people quote the dalai lama's views on sex, a man who is probably still a virgin. I would take these views about as seriously as an anorexic giving dietary advice..................


For tantra, it's related to inner yoga.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:31 pm 
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When I took my pratimoksha vows, my Lama offered the vow against sexual misconduct the same way that most teachers give it today. As refraining from sexual conduct that causes suffering, rape, adultery, intruding in a relationship, etc. In my opinion, and the opinion of many teachers and scholars, the idea that there are improper orifices (and improper times...so anybody who's "grabbed some afternoon delight" is just as puritanically sinful as a homosexual...) is antiquated and absurd for a 21st century society.
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well. And my Lama supports homosexuality, which is all that really matters for my practice and vows. I'd always take a Tibetan monastic Gelugpa's views on sex with a grain of salt.
Also, Id be extremely surprised if ANY non-monastic practitioner here follows the "traditional" guidelines of proper sexual conduct, including proper orifices, proper times, and proper sexual partners.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:35 pm 
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JinpaRangdrol wrote:
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well.


First of all, that's an oxymoron.

Any reliable sources for your assertion?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:43 pm 
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JinpaRangdrol wrote:
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well.


So did Dujdom R.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:53 pm 
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In regard to all three above-mentioned Lamas now:

"Any reliable sources for your assertion?"


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
JinpaRangdrol wrote:
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well.


First of all, that's an oxymoron.

Any reliable sources for your assertion?


Ok, fine. Traditional practice of the Tantra of the Lower Gate. Happy?
http://khandro.net/dailylife_homosexuality.htm has a selection of personal experiences with teachers, including the aforementioned.
I'd also consider scholars such as Alexander Berzin and Jeffrey Hopkins (a Gelugpa), and their dissertations on the subject.

Hell, there's a prominent non-monastic Tibetan lineage holder who is either bisexual or homosexual. I won't name names at this point, because I don't know if he's really gone public with it yet, but it will be revealed sometime soon...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 pm 
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I think it's interesting that a Dzogchenpa is this adamant about condemning homosexuality on an internet forum. I'd be interested to hear ChNNR's opinion on the matter...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
In regard to all three above-mentioned Lamas now:

"Any reliable sources for your assertion?"



In the case of the latter, a personal student of Dudjom R-- personal communication verified by a second party.

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Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:04 pm 
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JinpaRangdrol wrote:
I think it's interesting that a Dzogchenpa is this adamant about condemning homosexuality on an internet forum. I'd be interested to hear ChNNR's opinion on the matter...


Lhugpa is a noob (sorry, but its true). I would not call him a Dzogchenpa just yet.

He is working it out. He has a lot of conceptual baggage from non-Buddhsits he stills find authoratative.

He will realize eventually that all this obsession with fluids and gender is a complete waste of time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
He will realize eventually that all this obsession with fluids and gender is a complete waste of time.


:twothumbsup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Even if the said Lamas did say what they're quoted as saying, it could imply various things; and is hardly an actual recommendation for people to have "homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice"[sic].

For example the fact that Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche is said to have been somewhat surprised by the question posed to him, shows that he was only being nice.

Regarding Dudjom Rinpoche, most likely a similar scenario (i.e. him being nice getting taken by others as a full-on "go ahead", even though that was not what was necessarily implied).

Also, about "obsession with fluids and gender", try telling that to H.H. the Dalai Lama, who is, first and foremost, a Dzogchenpa.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:

Also, about "obsession with fluids and gender", try telling that to H.H. the Dalai Lama, who is, first and foremost, a Dzogchenpa.


I would be happy to discuss this with HHDL anytime. I have ample proof in the form of texts and so on that his presentation is not properly understood by others.

Anyway Lhugpa, you are not even remotely an expert on this subject. You have received what, a couple of direct introductions, at best from ChNN? Have you ever received a full on major empowerment such as Hevajra, Kalacakra, Guhyagarbha, etc? If you have not, then I would suggest that you are not qualified to have an opinion on this topic, let alone be discussing it.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a practitioner. You have not engaged in creation stage practice, so how can you pretend to have any insight at all into completion stage practices? At least, at the very least, I spent three years in solitary retreat doing these practices.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a translator, nor a scholar. You are speaking from the perspective of an enthusiastic layperson with very inadequate knowledge of the subject.

N

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Well I think that H.H. the Dalai Lama would "be nice" too, in order to be more 'diplomatic' than I am about these issue.

Nevertheless, I'll bet anything that he would still say that non-heterosexual relations are harmful for Dzogchen practice, and that there's no scriptural support that would suggest otherwise.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
non-heterosexual relations are harmful for Dzogchen practice.


This is absurd and just plain incorrect.

Topic locked as this thread has gone in the completely wrong direction.

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