Empowerments within empowerments

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Paul » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:29 pm

I read this post while browsing the web and I'd be interested to know if it's true that there are permissions for various deities' mantras etc. containted within an empowerment for another deity.

I know for instance that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche consideres that his empowerments are also the wangs for vaious deity and mantra practices.
User avatar
Paul
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:34 am

Hayagriva wrote:I read this post while browsing the web and I'd be interested to know if it's true that there are permissions for various deities' mantras etc. containted within an empowerment for another deity.

I know for instance that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche consideres that his empowerments are also the wangs for vaious deity and mantra practices.


KT is an odd person. I doubt that he is correct. No wang translation I ever seen included any empowerment's that wasn't a part of the mandala. Also the the "three words that strike the vital point" is not an empowerment at all, it is a teaching . ChNN gives "rigpe tsal wangs" , "lungs" for many mantras and then he also give full blown empowerments more rarely. I doubt he feel like they are all the same.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:12 pm

heart wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:I read this post while browsing the web and I'd be interested to know if it's true that there are permissions for various deities' mantras etc. containted within an empowerment for another deity.

I know for instance that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche consideres that his empowerments are also the wangs for vaious deity and mantra practices.


KT is an odd person. I doubt that he is correct. No wang translation I ever seen included any empowerment's that wasn't a part of the mandala. Also the the "three words that strike the vital point" is not an empowerment at all, it is a teaching . ChNN gives "rigpe tsal wangs" , "lungs" for many mantras and then he also give full blown empowerments more rarely. I doubt he feel like they are all the same.

/magnus

He only gives the first part of the Rigpai tsal wang publicly.
Yeah, I'm not sure where KT got the idea that the "three words" were an empowerment. Its an overall weird post.
A lot of teachers will give you lung or pewang if you have previously received a major empowerment or Vajrasattva empowerment but I think KT is mistaken for the most part.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Paul » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:03 pm

Nangwa wrote:I think KT is mistaken for the most part.


I thought this would be the case, but the notion of one empowerment/permission being within the other was interesting.

The fact that some of the mantras being wrong and that I'd never heard of such a thing before made me doubt it.
User avatar
Paul
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:53 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I think KT is mistaken for the most part.


I thought this would be the case, but the notion of one empowerment/permission being within the other was interesting.

The fact that some of the mantras being wrong and that I'd never heard of such a thing before made me doubt it.


I'm sure if we looked we could find examples of this being true, but I think KT goes to far when he implies that it is a general rule.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Luke » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:11 pm

I'll add the small bit of information that I know.

My lama wanted a visiting lama to give us the empowerment for the 108 deities which live within our bodies. However, the visiting lama did not have enough time, so he gave us a Vajrasattva empowerment instead and said that Vajrasattva was the "summation" of these 108 deities.

OM BENZA SATO HUNG!
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:15 pm

Luke wrote:I'll add the small bit of information that I know.

My lama wanted a visiting lama to give us the empowerment for the 108 deities which live within our bodies. However, the visiting lama did not have enough time, so he gave us a Vajrasattva empowerment instead and said that Vajrasattva was the "summation" of these 108 deities.

OM BENZA SATO HUNG!

Yes, this is why many lama's will give a lung or pewang to students who have received a Vajrasattva empowerment rather than requiring them to receive the full empowerment before practicing specific yidams.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:54 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Luke wrote:I'll add the small bit of information that I know.

My lama wanted a visiting lama to give us the empowerment for the 108 deities which live within our bodies. However, the visiting lama did not have enough time, so he gave us a Vajrasattva empowerment instead and said that Vajrasattva was the "summation" of these 108 deities.

OM BENZA SATO HUNG!

Yes, this is why many lama's will give a lung or pewang to students who have received a Vajrasattva empowerment rather than requiring them to receive the full empowerment before practicing specific yidams.


I never heard that in my 25 years as a practitioner. Which Lamas and traditions are you referring to?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:07 pm

heart wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Luke wrote:I'll add the small bit of information that I know.

My lama wanted a visiting lama to give us the empowerment for the 108 deities which live within our bodies. However, the visiting lama did not have enough time, so he gave us a Vajrasattva empowerment instead and said that Vajrasattva was the "summation" of these 108 deities.

OM BENZA SATO HUNG!

Yes, this is why many lama's will give a lung or pewang to students who have received a Vajrasattva empowerment rather than requiring them to receive the full empowerment before practicing specific yidams.


I never heard that in my 25 years as a practitioner. Which Lamas and traditions are you referring to?

/magnus


In most Nyingma circles the base requirement for practicing ngondro etc. is a Vajrasattva empowerment. Usually if a practitioner has received the Vajrasattva empowerment and have access to their teacher they can get permission to do other practices through a pewang or lung rather than waiting for the entire empowerment.
I have experienced this many times with different Nyingma and Kagyu lamas. I'm not going to list specific teachers as I am not a fan of name-dropping. Sorry.
You very well may have never heard of or experienced this kind of transmission. Thats fine and I dont think you are incorrect.
You have your experience and I have mine, some people may share in what I have learned and others may have the same experience as you. In the diversity of teachings there is no one answer.
Last edited by Josef on Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:19 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I think KT is mistaken for the most part.


I thought this would be the case, but the notion of one empowerment/permission being within the other was interesting.

The fact that some of the mantras being wrong and that I'd never heard of such a thing before made me doubt it.

One such case where multiple transmissions are given in a single empowerment would be certain Kagye Deshek Dupa empowerments.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:17 pm

Nangwa wrote:
In most Nyingma circles the base requirement for practicing ngondro etc. is a Vajrasattva empowerment. Usually if a practitioner has received the Vajrasattva empowerment and have access to their teacher they can get permission to do other practices through a pewang or lung rather than waiting for the entire empowerment.
I have experienced this many times with different Nyingma and Kagyu lamas. I'm not going to list specific teachers as I am not a fan of name-dropping. Sorry.
You very well may have never heard of or experienced this kind of transmission. Thats fine and I dont think you are incorrect.
You have your experience and I have mine, some people may share in what I have learned and others may have the same experience as you. In the diversity of teachings there is no one answer.


I practiced in both Kagyu and Nyingma and no Lama or Rinpoche ever asked if anyone have a Vajrasattva empowerment in order to do Ngondro. Maybe you can point me to some teaching o the internet?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:29 pm

heart wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
In most Nyingma circles the base requirement for practicing ngondro etc. is a Vajrasattva empowerment. Usually if a practitioner has received the Vajrasattva empowerment and have access to their teacher they can get permission to do other practices through a pewang or lung rather than waiting for the entire empowerment.
I have experienced this many times with different Nyingma and Kagyu lamas. I'm not going to list specific teachers as I am not a fan of name-dropping. Sorry.
You very well may have never heard of or experienced this kind of transmission. Thats fine and I dont think you are incorrect.
You have your experience and I have mine, some people may share in what I have learned and others may have the same experience as you. In the diversity of teachings there is no one answer.


I practiced in both Kagyu and Nyingma and no Lama or Rinpoche ever asked if anyone have a Vajrasattva empowerment in order to do Ngondro. Maybe you can point me to some teaching o the internet?

/magnus

Not sure if I can find anything specific on the web but you can easily find a lot of instances where the two are "packaged together" ie, you go to a retreat and get a Vajrasattva empowerment and ngondro teachings at that retreat. I will have to admit that I shouldnt have said "requirement" in regards to the Vajrasattva empowerment. I should have said something more along the lines of a Vajrasattva empowerment being "encouraged".
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:52 pm

Nangwa wrote:
heart wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
In most Nyingma circles the base requirement for practicing ngondro etc. is a Vajrasattva empowerment. Usually if a practitioner has received the Vajrasattva empowerment and have access to their teacher they can get permission to do other practices through a pewang or lung rather than waiting for the entire empowerment.
I have experienced this many times with different Nyingma and Kagyu lamas. I'm not going to list specific teachers as I am not a fan of name-dropping. Sorry.
You very well may have never heard of or experienced this kind of transmission. Thats fine and I dont think you are incorrect.
You have your experience and I have mine, some people may share in what I have learned and others may have the same experience as you. In the diversity of teachings there is no one answer.


I practiced in both Kagyu and Nyingma and no Lama or Rinpoche ever asked if anyone have a Vajrasattva empowerment in order to do Ngondro. Maybe you can point me to some teaching o the internet?

/magnus

Not sure if I can find anything specific on the web but you can easily find a lot of instances where the two are "packaged together" ie, you go to a retreat and get a Vajrasattva empowerment and ngondro teachings at that retreat. I will have to admit that I shouldnt have said "requirement" in regards to the Vajrasattva empowerment. I should have said something more along the lines of a Vajrasattva empowerment being "encouraged".


That is an other thing altogether, isn't it?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:56 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I think KT is mistaken for the most part.


I thought this would be the case, but the notion of one empowerment/permission being within the other was interesting.

The fact that some of the mantras being wrong and that I'd never heard of such a thing before made me doubt it.

One such case where multiple transmissions are given in a single empowerment would be certain Kagye Deshek Dupa empowerments.


The Kagye is one mandala. It isn't exactly the same as getting a Vajrasattva empowerment that include a Vajrapani empowerment.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:41 pm

heart wrote:
I thought this would be the case, but the notion of one empowerment/permission being within the other was interesting.

The fact that some of the mantras being wrong and that I'd never heard of such a thing before made me doubt it.

One such case where multiple transmissions are given in a single empowerment would be certain Kagye Deshek Dupa empowerments.[/quote]

The Kagye is one mandala. It isn't exactly the same as getting a Vajrasattva empowerment that include a Vajrapani empowerment.

/magnus[/quote]
Maybe that is how the Kagye Deshek Dupa that you are familiar with and the one that I received differ.
Not sure why you are comparing it to Vajrasattva and Vajrapani.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:44 pm

heart wrote:

I practiced in both Kagyu and Nyingma and no Lama or Rinpoche ever asked if anyone have a Vajrasattva empowerment in order to do Ngondro. Maybe you can point me to some teaching o the internet?

/magnus

Not sure if I can find anything specific on the web but you can easily find a lot of instances where the two are "packaged together" ie, you go to a retreat and get a Vajrasattva empowerment and ngondro teachings at that retreat. I will have to admit that I shouldnt have said "requirement" in regards to the Vajrasattva empowerment. I should have said something more along the lines of a Vajrasattva empowerment being "encouraged".[/quote]

That is an other thing altogether, isn't it?

/magnus[/quote]
Sorry. not sure what you mean Magnus.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:18 am

Nangwa wrote:Maybe that is how the Kagye Deshek Dupa that you are familiar with and the one that I received differ.
Not sure why you are comparing it to Vajrasattva and Vajrapani.


Kagye is when you practice the 8 herukas in one mandala with Chemchok heruka as the central deity.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Kagy%C3%A9

I said that Kagye (with it's 9 deities in one mandala) is not the same as what the original posters link where the person KT says that every major empowerment (for example Vajrasattva) contain a Vajrapani empowerment.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:25 am

Nangwa wrote:
heart wrote:
That is an other thing altogether, isn't it?

/magnus

Sorry. not sure what you mean Magnus.


Nangwa, there is a big difference between saying it is a "requirement" and being "encouraged". In fact it changes the meaning completely. Even so, I never heard a Lama or Rinpoche encourage that either. I am sure you can find me some source for that?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:09 pm

heart wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
heart wrote:
That is an other thing altogether, isn't it?

/magnus

Sorry. not sure what you mean Magnus.


Nangwa, there is a big difference between saying it is a "requirement" and being "encouraged". In fact it changes the meaning completely. Even so, I never heard a Lama or Rinpoche encourage that either. I am sure you can find me some source for that?

/magnus

Sorry you might have missed it Magnus. I'm not really interested in continuing the discussion to be honest.
I already acknowledged that I mis-represented when I said "requirement". I remember getting involved with you in circular discussions on e-sangha and have no desire to repeat that here. I dont mean to be rude.
You can think whatever you want and thats just fine. We have different experiences, thats all.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Empowerments within empowerments

Postby heart » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:18 pm

Nangwa wrote:Sorry you might have missed it Magnus. I'm not really interested in continuing the discussion to be honest.
I already acknowledged that I mis-represented when I said "requirement". I remember getting involved with you in circular discussions on e-sangha and have no desire to repeat that here. I dont mean to be rude.
You can think whatever you want and thats just fine. We have different experiences, thats all.


I have no idea who you are, so I can't recall having any discussions with you on e-sangha or anywhere else. I have no problems with you, I just think you should be able to back up your statements with some facts, that's all.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Next

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Fa Dao, supermaxv, Yahoo [Bot] and 24 guests

>