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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:30 am 
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Just as Buddha Shakyamuni had some unruly upstart students like Devadatta,
many other great masters likewise will have not-such-great student examples.
You can't really judge a teacher by their students alone...
since it is the students responsibility to properly apply the teachings..
and since even Buddhas can't do your work for you and 'enlighten' you.

You use Trungpa as an example-- well despite many great and well trained students
he would probably be dissapointed with some, especially those
that merely imitated his drunken philandering ways without the
true crazy-wisdom element he had to pull it off.
His regent is one example of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:42 am 
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"When the worldy morons encounter a devilish, cock-and-bull fellow who babbles a demonic line, they come up with a demonic interpretation and use it as compass. This is beneath comment. How can they perform the function of a great thing? Hearing that a certain person leads a group of millions, their mind is triggered into motion. Gaze well at the dharmas of your own mind to determine whether it harbors the spoken and written word or not."


excerpt from The Bodhidharma Anthology, J. L. Broughton


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:55 am 
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:good:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:14 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others

catmoon wrote:
What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?


hmmmmnnn.... is this the missing puzzle piece? did i get it right?


I don't see how the statements contradict. I think Atisha was talking about comparing your progress to others. That doesn't imply negating the cultivation of a pure intention to wake up for the sake of others.

As for judging a guru, I think you need to look at how their other students get along with their practice in order to accurately judge their merit. Like I've said before, take chogyam trungpa: a drunk and a fillanderer. But his students are very well trained.


Excellent. A little context often clears things up. Tnx

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:39 am 
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Beatzen wrote:
As for judging a guru, I think you need to look at how their other students get along with their practice in order to accurately judge their merit. Like I've said before, take chogyam trungpa: a drunk and a fillanderer. But his students are very well trained.
I'll take it you didn't read te section on Chogyam Trungpa in the book quoted here viewtopic.php?f=77&t=3012&start=60#p78025 by Will.

Don't get me wrong, I consider Chogyam Trungpa's Dharma teachings impeccable, almost beyond reproach, but his behaviour, well...
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:23 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
As for judging a guru, I think you need to look at how their other students get along with their practice in order to accurately judge their merit. Like I've said before, take chogyam trungpa: a drunk and a fillanderer. But his students are very well trained.
I'll take it you didn't read te section on Chogyam Trungpa in the book quoted here viewtopic.php?f=77&t=3012&start=60#p78025 by Will.

Don't get me wrong, I consider Chogyam Trungpa's Dharma teachings impeccable, almost beyond reproach, but his behaviour, well...
:namaste:


As it says in the Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra:" Rely on the teachings not on the person".

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:17 pm 
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21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already. [3]

22. Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones. [4]

23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.

24. Ever grows the glory of him who is energetic, mindful and pure in conduct, discerning and self-controlled, righteous and heedful.

25. By effort and heedfulness, discipline and self-mastery, let the wise one make for himself an island which no flood can overwhelm.

26. The foolish and ignorant indulge in heedlessness, but the wise one keeps his heedfulness as his best treasure.

27. Do not give way to heedlessness. Do not indulge in sensual pleasures. Only the heedful and meditative attain great happiness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:24 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Quote:
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already. [3]

22. Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones. [4]

23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.

24. Ever grows the glory of him who is energetic, mindful and pure in conduct, discerning and self-controlled, righteous and heedful.

25. By effort and heedfulness, discipline and self-mastery, let the wise one make for himself an island which no flood can overwhelm.

26. The foolish and ignorant indulge in heedlessness, but the wise one keeps his heedfulness as his best treasure.

27. Do not give way to heedlessness. Do not indulge in sensual pleasures. Only the heedful and meditative attain great happiness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html
:namaste:


I understand that this is Your core teaching, and that you also embody it in your life. Excellent!

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