the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby Sherab » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:55 am

Do ensure variety in your vegan intake ... different types of leafy veg, nuts, fruits, beans, roots.
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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby lotwell » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:59 am

Good for you for getting healthy!!

I should put more time into the same endevaor...

are yougetting enough b12?

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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby zerwe » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:41 am

lotwell wrote:Good for you for getting healthy!!

I should put more time into the same endevaor...

are yougetting enough b12?

Lotwell


Yes, congrats! It is certainly possible. However, do proceed with caution.
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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby Sherab » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:37 am

lotwell wrote:Good for you for getting healthy!!

I should put more time into the same endevaor...

are yougetting enough b12?

Lotwell

Isn't B12 naturally produced by the body?
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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby Huifeng » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:38 pm

edearl wrote::D Finally quit animal products, and completed 3 weeks of 1500 calories or less.
Just started 500 calories / day and don't need one of my Type 2 diabetes meds.
Plan 2 weeks of 500, just to prove to myself I can do it, and next start my 1000 cal/day
lifestyle.

I have been in the hospital for a week...I had a bone spur in my right heel, uncontrolled lymphedema in my upper legs, pain everywhere from being too fat...it was a rock bottom time. :emb:

Time to fight my way back to better health. :D


All the best, for your ongoing physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health! :smile:

~~ Huifeng
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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby Nemo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:51 pm

IF my medical training is still current B12 is stored by the body. Back then they were saying you had a few years worth stored away. Best way is to get the injectable at Walmart, give yourself a dose and see how you feel. Many geriatric patients get frisky after their first shot. People are deficient regardless of diet. It's a free blood test in Canada and B12 is so cheap it is hard to argue not taking it.

If you are seriously calorie restricting yourself watch your electrolytes. Most weight loss Docs recommend supplemental B12, potassium and drinking large amounts of water.

When I get in the mood to lose weight I force my body into ketogenesis. I lose about a pound a day. Test strips are about 3$. You can get them with the B12.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby kirtu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:29 pm

Brad Plumer (WP Wonkbook) on Americans eating less meat - long term trend rather than just a result of the 2008 Depression.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:15 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Uh, because I don't believe that is possible. Namdrol once said he's a vegetarian now EXCEPT for not refusing such offerings because he didn't quite think he had that ability himself, but he would never refuse ritual substances.


Our bodies, essentially, are composed of rtsal which is expressed in our ignorance as the five outer and inner elements.

When pracitioners eat the flesh of those who have been killed (necessarily by someone else, not at our specific encouragement, nor have we seen the animal killed) a postive cause is created for this being. Why? Because a connection is made through the field of rtsal which also includes minds.

Since we don't eat anything but cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, fowl, fish and seafood, these animals are in some sense luckier than others, they are more closely associated with human beings, and more likely to wind up in the diet of practitioners.

It is not a question of ability, it is question of knowledge. When you know how everything is connected through rtsal, then such questions about the mechanisms by which a practitioner consuming the flesh of some unfortunate animal benefits that animal becomes very obvious.

The reason why Ganapujas have a powerful effect is that there is no more power an offering than offering to the Guru. If your ganapuja is just a dry ritual, then of course it will have little benefit.

N


Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal. The only reason would be that being upstream yourself won't change anything ... but that's not a valid objection if you project it, let say, at a political level.

Sönam


I actually agree with you completely. I think that, as long as we live in a society in which we can readily find nutritional substitutions for meat (through supplementation and healthy vegetarian diets), then it's unacceptable to eat meat on a daily basis. I was vegetarian for 6 years when I first started practicing Buddhism because it seemed like the "right thing to do," but then I spent a few years eating meat, constantly justifying it to myself with the same ol' Vajrayana rhetoric of "imbibing poison to transform it." Eventually, I just broke down and couldn't justify anymore. If I'm unwilling to purchase human meat, or to go out and kill an animal myself to eat it, then I should by no means financially support an industry that makes its money on the torture and slaughter of animals. Now, while I'd never refuse the Samaya substances in a Ganachakra, I also refrain from eating meat because it just no longer makes sense to my conscience.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:19 pm

Sönam wrote:Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.



This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.



This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.


yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.



This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.


yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam

I would love to hear more on this.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:47 pm

when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:54 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:Yes but, and that is why have difficulty with that recommandation of Rinpoché, at the same time you are more upstream of the chain, because you are also one of the multiple causes of the violent death of the concerned animal.



This is just as much a problem with animals killed during the production of wheat.


yes but, as you explained to me years ago, there is a hierarchy by animals regarding buddhahood ...

Sönam



I did not explain it, but other people maintain that higher animals lives are more precious because they are higher life forms.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:55 pm

What I would like to know is... how do I bring them back to life? You know, like Tilopa. just kidding. ;)
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:55 pm

Sönam wrote:when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam



Yes, I never explained such a principle. I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:56 pm

padma norbu wrote:What I would like to know is... how do I bring them back to life? You know, like Tilopa. just kidding. ;)



Well, I think rebirth pretty much covers it.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: 3 Weeks Vegan

Postby Paliut » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:09 am

I myself have been a vegan for a little over a year now. If you eat a variety of food you should be good. As for b12 you could take sublingual vitamins and buy foods which are enriched. Soy milks, cereals, granola bars... etc. Once i found peppermint gum with B12 added into it. I don't remember the brand but i'm sure a quick search can get you the name.

Veganism has worked for me, not only in a nutritional aspect, but also because it is the ultimate compassionate diet. So much abuse is caused to animals in factory farming now-a-days vegetarianism and veganism is, in my humble opinion, the true path of compassion (dietarily speaking)

Good Luck on you Vegan Journey. Keep it up. :twothumbsup:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:04 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Can Insects Feel Pain?
.


Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .

http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Nature-Inquiry-into-Knowledge/dp/1585423998

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Acchantika » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Can Insects Feel Pain?
.


Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .


I just wanted to clarify that whether an insect can or can't feel pain is not a reflection of whether or not it is sentient. As before, some human's can't feel pain, but that doesn't mean they are not sentient. Just as humans lack the sensory capabilities to detect gamma rays, but are sentient, insects lack a centralized nervous system which would make it impossible for them to experience pain as we currently understand it. But, we may understand it wrong. Either way, this doesn't mean they are not aware or conscious at all.

Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam


I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.


Forced to kill one or the other, what would inform your decision?
...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:05 pm

Acchantika wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Can Insects Feel Pain?
.


Just to shake things up even more, it's a must to read this book as an overview of contemporary scientific research into intelligence in life forms other-than-human, --including plants (that make decisions, interact with their environments, and appear to feel pain) and slime molds which solve mazes. Warning-- the contents of this book certainly do challenge some long-held Buddhist beliefs about the limits of "sentience" .


I just wanted to clarify that whether an insect can or can't feel pain is not a reflection of whether or not it is sentient. As before, some human's can't feel pain, but that doesn't mean they are not sentient. Just as humans lack the sensory capabilities to detect gamma rays, but are sentient, insects lack a centralized nervous system which would make it impossible for them to experience pain as we currently understand it. But, we may understand it wrong. Either way, this doesn't mean they are not aware or conscious at all.

Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:when you have no other choice, you better kill the animal form the most distant from buddhahhod ... an insect is more distant to bouddhahood than a cow, for exemple.

Sönam


I violently disagree with this point of view, actually.


Forced to kill one or the other, what would inform your decision?


I would insist the person forcing me be the one to choose.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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