Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

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Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby AlexanderS » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation. You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no?

Maybe I did not word my question very well, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Caz » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:03 pm

Not all of them are actually enlightened some of them have the ability to control their rebirth and are highly accomplished and then demonstrate the importance of practicing and learning the path, Others are reborn through the force of a previous connection and are eventually discovered.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Nemo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:54 pm

"There is dry wood and there is green wood." Tulkus are very dry wood. The great ones need only one spark and they start burning.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby sangyey » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:01 pm

I've often wondered this question to. As these highly realized masters it is sort of their job for the sake of others to overcome the kleshas so they spend their whole lives (s) doing that and when they take re-birth I suppose the kleshas will be less but what happens when say a fully realized being takes re-birth? Will they have no kleshas at all at say the ages of 2, 3, 4?
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Norden » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:17 pm

AlexanderS wrote:Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation. You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no?

Maybe I did not word my question very well, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.


I've been questioning of this too. The story of 17th Karmapa who loved to eat meat when he was a child. And later, by the influence of other Master, HH began to adopt vegetarianism. Also Why HH did not remember other thing related to the Buddhist practice (has to be taught by his teacher) BUT can remember the good belong to 16th Karmapa e.g. Mala, Bell, etc? A person who can decide the place, the parents, the village that he will be born at is not a low level of practitioner, but why HH starts again from beginning? Is this person the same person as previous or just another ordinary guy?
A person who took a Bodhisattva Vow is said to be have a quality of the vow taken in previous life, therefore some people who have carried a particular behaviour in their previous life will have that previous behaviour imprints in their behaviour in this life. This is why we need to do virtue and wholesome actions and avoid the unwholesome. But the Tulku reincarnation, to me, is questionable. Is the purpose of reincarnation is just a reincarnation or there is other purpose? Any thoughts?
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Norden » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:43 am

AlexanderS wrote:Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation. You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no? Do you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN ... ture=share

Maybe I did not word my question very well, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby heart » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:30 am

Norden wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation. You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no?

Maybe I did not word my question very well, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.


I've been questioning of this too. The story of 17th Karmapa who loved to eat meat when he was a child. And later, by the influence of other Master, HH began to adopt vegetarianism. Also Why HH did not remember other thing related to the Buddhist practice (has to be taught by his teacher) BUT can remember the good belong to 16th Karmapa e.g. Mala, Bell, etc? A person who can decide the place, the parents, the village that he will be born at is not a low level of practitioner, but why HH starts again from beginning? Is this person the same person as previous or just another ordinary guy?
A person who took a Bodhisattva Vow is said to be have a quality of the vow taken in previous life, therefore some people who have carried a particular behaviour in their previous life will have that previous behaviour imprints in their behaviour in this life. This is why we need to do virtue and wholesome actions and avoid the unwholesome. But the Tulku reincarnation, to me, is questionable. Is the purpose of reincarnation is just a reincarnation or there is other purpose? Any thoughts?


The 16th Karmapa was not a vegetarian. Very few Tibetans were, they are choosing it more now when it is easier for them to be vegetarians, for example the 17th Karmapa. Many of the people writing in this forum have taken Bodhisattva vows in this and previous lives and now we are here helping you out with our answers Norden. We are not exactly Bodhisattvas but there is an actual effort on our behalf, even if one might suspect otherwise. Reincarnation/rebirth is an integral part of all Buddhism, so why would a Tulku be strange?

How many Tulku's do you actually know well Norden? The point being that it is easier to judge people that you actually never met.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Norden » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:50 am

heart wrote:
Norden wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation. You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no?

Maybe I did not word my question very well, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.


I've been questioning of this too. The story of 17th Karmapa who loved to eat meat when he was a child. And later, by the influence of other Master, HH began to adopt vegetarianism. Also Why HH did not remember other thing related to the Buddhist practice (has to be taught by his teacher) BUT can remember the good belong to 16th Karmapa e.g. Mala, Bell, etc? A person who can decide the place, the parents, the village that he will be born at is not a low level of practitioner, but why HH starts again from beginning? Is this person the same person as previous or just another ordinary guy?
A person who took a Bodhisattva Vow is said to be have a quality of the vow taken in previous life, therefore some people who have carried a particular behaviour in their previous life will have that previous behaviour imprints in their behaviour in this life. This is why we need to do virtue and wholesome actions and avoid the unwholesome. But the Tulku reincarnation, to me, is questionable. Is the purpose of reincarnation is just a reincarnation or there is other purpose? Any thoughts?


The 16th Karmapa was not a vegetarian. Very few Tibetans were, they are choosing it more now when it is easier for them to be vegetarians, for example the 17th Karmapa. Many of the people writing in this forum have taken Bodhisattva vows in this and previous lives and now we are here helping you out with our answers Norden. We are not exactly Bodhisattvas but there is an actual effort on our behalf, even if one might suspect otherwise. Reincarnation/rebirth is an integral part of all Buddhism, so why would a Tulku be strange?

How many Tulku's do you actually know well Norden? The point being that it is easier to judge people that you actually never met.

/magnus


I am here not to judge but to share my thought that coincidently? relatively the same as AlexanderS.
Whatever I experienced is different with your/other ppl experiences. It is all up to people to observe and decide. So I'm not gonna go to stories. What I feel is, AlexanderS' post was make sense to me.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby heart » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:09 am

Well Norden and AlexanderS I think that if you want to understand these matters you have to get a little closer to a real Tulku than the internet gossip. Every single sentient being have difficulties, that is the fact of Samsara. Then of course Tulkus will also have difficulties. The point of Tulkus, as I understand it, is not that they are free from difficulties it is that they are very close to the natural state.

/magnus
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby kirtu » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:23 am

Norden wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters have do relearn Dharma, when they take a new incarnation.


There are basically two explanations for this. For tulkus at a lower level (so below 8th bhumi) they don't retain knowledge from lifetime to lifetime. They do build up merit and wisdom and have deeply ingrained positive habits but upon death all their actual conceptual knowledge (or most of it) is forgotten although some remember parts of it. Also lower level tulkus can also be tulkus who aren't even at the 1st bhumi yet and they are just getting by on prayer and aspiration and have even fewer positive habits and even more kleshas to deal with.

Tulkus on the 8th bhumi and above are said to basically be going through the motions of relearning.

You hear stories, and hear from some tulku's that they are just some ordinary guy. There was some recent news about the current kalu rinpoche going to a rough period(understandable though) and had a brief stint with drugs and alcohol. Shouldn't they by the very nature of being tulu's always abide in Nirvana, and be beyond suffering, since realization is supposed to be permanent, and that is afterall why we strive for it no?


Actual realization is permanent. But most tulkus aren't realized. The lowest level tulkus purified lots of karma in previous lifetimes and accumulated merit and some wisdom but took rebirth on the basis of prayer and aspiration and the force of the Bodhisattva Vow. Tulkus on the lower buhmi's do have realization but can still screw up. Also realization does not mean that they can conceptually explain the teachings. As kids they know the teachings intuitively but can't explain them conceptually. Once they rehear the teachings then things begin to click and they can advance quickly (this can also be true of tulkus not on the bhumis).

So some good sources are Berzin, "Enthronement, The Recognition of the Reincarnate Masters of Tibet and the Himalayas", Ngawang Zangpo (Hugh Leslie Thompson) and Tulku Thondrup's "Incarnation".

When tulku's or reincarnate realized masters speak of inner difficulties, there is course a sense of humbleness, but It also gives me feelings of discouragement.


As long as we have a body we will have obscurations in some form. The higher tulkus mostly have difficulties from circumstances. Mostly this means that spiritual forces are trying to keep them from accomplishing what they need to.

I've been questioning of this too. The story of 17th Karmapa who loved to eat meat when he was a child. And later, by the influence of other Master, HH began to adopt vegetarianism.


Tibetans have not commonly been vegetarians so this habit would not come from previous lifetimes for tulkus.

Also Why HH did not remember other thing related to the Buddhist practice (has to be taught by his teacher) BUT can remember the good belong to 16th Karmapa e.g. Mala, Bell, etc?


I covered this above. Now a strong practitioner could probably identify their mala, vajra and bell from their previous lifetime because they would have such a strong connection with them.

But the Tulku reincarnation, to me, is questionable. Is the purpose of reincarnation is just a reincarnation or there is other purpose? Any thoughts?


The only purpose of a tulku's reincarnation is to benefit beings and the Dharma.

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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Stewart » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:30 am

Also Why HH did not remember other thing related to the Buddhist practice (has to be taught by his teacher) BUT can remember the good belong to 16th Karmapa e.g. Mala, Bell, etc?


Regarding the Karmapa; a few years back at Gyuto, I was fortunate to spend 3 days with Karmapa in a small, private group receiving empowerments and teachings. He was quite amazing...very humble and humorous, his speech flowed beautifully, very clear. He taught on Madyamika and various Dohas, at the end he gave Guru Yoga wangs and before we left he sang a Doha, everyone was very moved. IMHO he is the real deal, those 3 days convinced me beyond doubt.

A Khenpo/Rinpoche I have known well for many years told me a while later that he and other Khenpos and Rinpoches gathered to give Karmapa transmission of the Hevajra Tantra. At the beginning Karmapa asked which transmission he was receiving from the senior Khenpo, they told him Hevajra Tantra, and Karmapa replied that he was unfamiliar with it. At the beginning the Khenpo read the first few lines of the text, and Karmapa said something like ' Oh yes I do know this one', and proceeded to give a near perfect 2 hour discourse on the Tantra to all the Khenpos present. Everyone one was amazed.
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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby kirtu » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:38 pm

samdrup wrote:A Khenpo/Rinpoche I have known well for many years told me a while later that he and other Khenpos and Rinpoches gathered to give Karmapa transmission of the Hevajra Tantra. At the beginning Karmapa asked which transmission he was receiving from the senior Khenpo, they told him Hevajra Tantra, and Karmapa replied that he was unfamiliar with it. At the beginning the Khenpo read the first few lines of the text, and Karmapa said something like ' Oh yes I do know this one', and proceeded to give a near perfect 2 hour discourse on the Tantra to all the Khenpos present. Everyone one was amazed.


Any idea when this happened?

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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Stewart » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:24 pm

Hi Kirt,

I would say I was told this story about 5 years ago-ish, it was quite a well known Rinpoche who told me. He was present and said he was very impressed and surprised by Karmapa's spontaneous teaching and in depth knowledge, especially as he hadn't received this teaching before (In this life anyway). As for detail, I am almost sure it was the Hevajra Tantra.

Best wishes,

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Re: Why do Tulku/reincarnate realized masters

Postby Mr. G » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:09 pm

    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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