Ancient and Modern Cosmology

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Kai
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Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby Kai » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:27 pm


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:23 am

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Kai
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Kai » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:33 am


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:49 am

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Kai
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Kai » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:01 am


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:12 pm

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Kai
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Kai » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:33 pm


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:08 pm

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Kai
Posts: 155
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Kai » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:48 pm


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Beatzen
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby Beatzen » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:44 am

I don't personally have an aversion to science. I just wish scientists would develop a sense of ethics in terms of forseeing the destructive, commonly military applications of their research. But that's just my green party bias coming through.

I think the Hindu cosmological model, the Vedic one, has significant bearing on all but east Asian Buddhism. It has to do with the Vedic consception of us as actors on a stage- the objective being to understand the true identity of the actor. I prefer the Chinese cosmology of Tao, because it gives a sense that the stage is "acting the actor"
"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
- Eihei Dogen Zenji

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catmoon
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby catmoon » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:06 am

Interesting that some people think quantum gravity is a disaster. To a scientist it's just an interesting topic, and something we haven't worked out yet. Not understanding everything there is to know, right this minute, hardly qualifies as a disaster.

Closer to the original topic, scientific cosmology has changed a lot since 1900. In 1900 we thought this galaxy WAS the Universe, not one of billions, and we had no clue as to the age of the universe or it's origins. Einstein raised interesting questions but they did not start to affect the general worldview until the 1930s(?) when redshift measurements were correlated and an expanding universe proven, a result which stands to this day. detailed measurements of the expansion led to inflationary theories, which seem to fit the data but are not completely solidified yet. Our current understanding of relativity and quantum mechanics can be merged well enough to create simple, plausible models of the universe that reach back to within a fraction of the very first second of time. Some might see it as a disaster, others might see it as a spectacular success.

There is nothing stopping anyone from regarding the current situation as a disaster, but if you are going to do that, and you believe in intellectual integrity, consistency would demand that any failure to understand anything (say, emptiness?) be equally regarded as a disaster.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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gad rgyangs
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:16 pm

my point was very simple: physics & its worldviews are rapidly changing. kai objects, claiming that physics changes incrementally only. i claim physics is in upheaval these days, a scant 100 years after the last upheaval of quantum mechanics and relativity, both of which fundamentally changed the way we humans think of our universe. the fact that these two major revolutionary theories have, until now, evaded reconciliation is considered a major missing piece in our understanding. string theory, which actually does relate the two, is highly controversial itself, with opinions divided between those considering it the only viable theory and those considering it pseudoscience. all of this, i believe, convincingly supports my original point in a very simple and clear way.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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catmoon
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby catmoon » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:44 pm

Nope. Definitely not in upheaval, although I and many physicists wish it were. Quantum mechanics is stable, as a theory, and is still very much recognizable as the same theory put forward by Bohr and others near the turn of the century. Relativity is equally stable. Both theories come with some caveats and operate on somewhat different bits of reality, and it has been so from the beginning of both theories. These are the theories that anyone who needs to actually do something uses and nobody argues with them or their limitations.

What throws science into upheaval is when new facts emerge that won't fit any existing theory. Such facts are very scarce these days, and they are sorely missed, because they could potentially select one of the myriad of new models and elevate it to the status of a scientific theory. We might have such a fact in the existence of dark matter/energy, but we aren't sure. The non-existence of the Higgs boson might upset the applecart a bit too.

But basically the theorists are fighting their battles unarmed with facts these days. There is some conflict over which theory posseses greater elegance, or potential explanatory power, but what is pointedly lacking is someone like Lavoisier, who appeared on the scene armed with masses of laboratory data that completely wrecked the existing ideas. Now THAT was upheaval.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

Kai
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby Kai » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:50 pm


Kai
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby Kai » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:00 pm


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:19 pm

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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catmoon
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:45 am

Looking at your point 1, a strange line of thought arose. While it is true that QM and relativity revolutionized scientific thought, bringing atomic weapons and consumer electronics in their wake, I really do wonder if they revolutionized many people's worldview. In most cases, general understanding of relativity ends with mouthing the platitude "everything is relative" as if it were a philosophical theory or something. And in most cases, the general understanding of what QM is and says is a big fat zero. So the great mass of humanity continues forward, buying and selling, eating and drinking, fighting and trying to get laid just like they always did, with a few new technological toys thrown in. The science has been revolutionized, but the impact on who and what we are as a species has been just about nil. The monkeys have iPods, but they're still monkeys.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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catmoon
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:53 am

Might as well look at point two.

There are theories out there with the potential to revolutionize science, but it's an unrealized potential at the moment. The multiverse theories have been around a long time, and some are even considered acceptable interpretations of QM math. But they are ivory tower stuff still, and have had no impact on the world at large that I can see.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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conebeckham
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Re: Ancient and Modern Cosmology

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:16 pm



Thought some of you might appreciate this....


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


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