Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.Namdrol wrote: Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.
The result does not arise from a cause.
The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The individual in dzogchen, independence, dharmakaya
SönamThe basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: The individual in dzogchen, independence, dharmakaya
Hi Sonam,Sönam wrote:SönamThe basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.
In the quote, there is the act of realization though:
- By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Mr. G wrote:Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.Namdrol wrote: Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.
The result does not arise from a cause.
The result does not depend on the two accumulations.
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Mr. G wrote:Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.Namdrol wrote: Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.
The result does not arise from a cause.
What's the difference?Mr. G wrote: Hi Sonam,
In the quote, there is the act of realization though:
- By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions
Namdrol has reaffirmed it.Namdrol wrote:The result does not depend on the two accumulations.
Sonam's quote:
^ Compare this with an exchange I had with Namdrol yesterday:The basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.
From RigpaWiki: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/thugs_rje" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Namdrol wrote:padma norbu wrote: It seems there is a quality of awareness which contains all knowledge and which is shared by everything in various quantities like an energy of some sort, basically, and then you basically contact and capture bits of this awareness like lightning bugs in a jar.
Yes, it is called thugs rjes which expresses itself as rtsal or energy.
N
thugs rje
ཐུགས་རྗེ།
compassion, power, benevolence, kindness * rtsal/ gdangs, mercy, good heart, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/ quality/ expression, karuna, [ever responsive] energy, [merciful w] grace, felt reality, resonance, spirituality, * thanks. (IW)
(innate) responsiveness*; isc. greatness of mind. (RB)
karuna, energy, compassion, grace, favor, mercy, blessing, value, compassionate (responsiveness, expression), noble (purpose, heart), generosity, pity, commiseration, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, omnipresent (compassion, power), potentiality of energy, potentiality of manifestation, potentiality of manifestation of energy (see also gdangs, rol pa, rtsal), 1 of chos gsum, innate compassionate responsiveness, potentiality of one's state, potentiality of compassionate energy, potentiality of compassion-energy, responsiveness, capacity. (JV)
compassion, power, benevolence, kindness [E g, snying rje is more feeling pity or sorry for someone (vctr] compassion, kindness, benevolence, rtsal, gdangs. grace, compassion [h] snying rje. kind[ness], mercy, good heart, benevolence, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/ quality/ expression, karuna. energy, ever responsive energies, merciful w grace, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, spirituality, [quality of nirmanakaya according to the Great Perfection. [Gd] thanks, the buddha-body of perfect rapture, and the spirituality. [Gd] tse. bka' nyes thugs rje gang che. (IW)
1) karuna, (h) of snying rje compassion, kindness, benevolence, grace, kindness, mercy, good heart, kind, benevolence, responsiveness merciful with grace. 2) Syn rtsal / gdangs capacity, expression, energy, compassionate energy / quality / expression, ever responsive energies, resonance, spirituality. (RY)
compassion, [power] benevolence, kindness [Notes: means both kind and powerful the intention or inspiration to be kind is bka' 'drin this is the fruition of that--the actual action whereas thugs rje is being generous, accommodating, snying rje is more feeling pity or sorry for someone (vctr). rtsal, gdangs. grace, compassion [h] snying rje. mercy, good heart, kind, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/quality/expression, karuna. energy, ever responsive energies, merciful with grace, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, spirituality. quality of the emanational body according to the Great Perfection. [Gd-mk]. thanks, the buddha-body of perfect rapture, and the spirituality [Gd-mk]. [tserig]. snying rje. [IW]
Capacity. (RY)
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
I wonder how much this can account for synchronicity and strange-seeming coincidences. Seems a lot of people in the same fields or circles of friends experience similar things at similar times, almost as if a wave of karma comes along and says, "right, we'll take care of the lot of them at once, wherever they are" and you have people independently discovering the same ideas all at once. There's even a well-known phenomena in science where independent researchers across the globe suddenly discover the same thing all at once.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Hi Namdrol,Namdrol wrote:The result does not depend on the two accumulations.Mr. G wrote:Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.Namdrol wrote: Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.
The result does not arise from a cause.
Is my following crude understanding correct?:
The basis was not recognized as being orignally pure and free of afflictions which initiated samsara and nirvana. However, we can't call the act of "recognition" a real act or cause due to the the basis which possesses a nature, essence and compassion. So it is not the individual that is "recognizing", but it is the intelligence of the basis that is at work.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
The three wisdoms, essence, nature and compassion, are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path. When they are realized, they are called the result.Mr. G wrote:
The basis was not recognized as being orignally pure and free of afflictions which initiated samsara and nirvana. However, we can't call the act of "recognition" a real act or cause due to the the basis which possesses a nature, essence and compassion. So it is not the individual that is "recognizing", but it is the intelligence of the basis that is at work.
N
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Hi Namdrol,Namdrol wrote: ....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.
N
What "causes" the act of recognition?
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
It is more like, what is the condition for recognition. The condition for recognition is the stirring of the basisMr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,Namdrol wrote: ....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.
N
What "causes" the act of recognition?
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Interesting, I did not realize this is what you were asking. Glad to have observed this discussion. Off to stir some basis...Mr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,Namdrol wrote: ....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.
N
What "causes" the act of recognition?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
It's all good.padma norbu wrote: Interesting, I did not realize this is what you were asking. Glad to have observed this discussion. Off to stir some basis...
<----- Basis being stirred
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Hi Namdrol,Namdrol wrote: It is more like, what is the condition for recognition. The condition for recognition is the stirring of the basis
Hmmm. At a simple level of understanding, I think the conditions would be movement of the air element stirring the trace afflictions from the past eon. I'm not sure how this correlates to the neutral awareness in either recognition or non-recognition of the basis though. Is it that within the trace afflictions there is some form of merit or wisdom that flips the switch of "recognition or non-recognition"? There must be some form of causes and conditions that enables recognition or non-recognition?
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Hi Namdrol,
Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":
The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:
merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.
Does this sound about right?
Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":
The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:
merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.
Does this sound about right?
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Mr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,
Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":
The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:
merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.
Does this sound about right?
Not at the time fo the basis; after the basis has arisen and samsara and nirvana have split, then this is correct. I.e. it is correct for sentient being. At the time of the basis however there are neither buddhas nor sentient beings, hence it is called the bardo of samsara and nirvana.
N
Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen
Thank you Namdrol. This clarifies a lot.Namdrol wrote:Mr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,
Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":
The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:
merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.
Does this sound about right?
Not at the time fo the basis; after the basis has arisen and samsara and nirvana have split, then this is correct. I.e. it is correct for sentient being. At the time of the basis however there are neither buddhas nor sentient beings, hence it is called the bardo of samsara and nirvana.
N
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu