The dukha of student loans.

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The dukha of student loans.

Postby Indrajala » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:20 am

Does anyone else suffer student loans?

I'm slowly paying mine off, but I've had many nightmares dealing with the government agencies that deal with them.

All around the world it seems so many youth have to suffer a debt sentence in order to get an education and secure the promised middle-class lifestyle (which is no guarantee).

It is a source of never ending grief for a lot of people. In fact it leads to suicides in some extreme cases too. In Canada for example you can't even escape student loans through bankruptcy unless you've been out of school for eight years. The government even sells student debt to private collection agencies that will stop at nothing and even harass relatives.

One thing that comes to mind is the potential hindrance that comes with debt when it comes to dharmic practise. If you want to go on a lengthy retreat, you probably can't do it with a boatload of debt on your back (it would be funny nevertheless to tell them that you're going to meditate in a cave for three years and thus won't have any income at all). As far as I know, according to the Vinaya you can't ordain if you have existing debt (or is it just one version of the vinaya that states that?).
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Clueless Git » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:03 pm

'Lo Huseng :)

You are not going to like me for saying this, BUT!

The 'purpose' of student loans is to deter people from taking an expensive education unless they intend to use it to pay society back by using that education to earn big bucks. Big bucks meaning big taxes, obviously ..

I come from the pre loan generation myself and I remember it well. Every work-shy waster who had half a brain would use Uni as a 3-5 year skive off of work and then, being work shy, would never use that education for society's gain.

They would complete uni and then turn buddhist and want to go live in a cave, that kinda thing?

The student loan is their legacy. A little bit of the old 'the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons' going on there. In buddhist terms I guess that would be something akin to the new generation reaping the karmic fruits of the last.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Indrajala » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:34 pm

However, the purpose of post-secondary education -- in particular in universities -- is not to produce higher income earners, but to foster learning, education and understanding of a myriad of topics. Universities nominally on paper at least do not operate on business models and their charters specify providing education as their key goal. It doesn't specify producing high income taxpayers who can provide added capital to the public coffers.

In that sense, whether you study commerce or abhidharma, the end result of earning potential shouldn't be stressed so much.

Also, I might add that several decades ago university tuition was far cheaper than it is now.

As one gentleman told me, "When I was in university I could work in the summer and earn enough to cover all my expenses during the year."

Unless you already have a high paying trade or something, you can't reasonably be expected to earn $11,000 in four months nowadays!
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:06 pm

I'm no more in age to get a loan (at all).
But as far as I can remember, students when they wanted to pursue studies shared there time half for uni half for work, so they were financing them self ... and it works, and it brought them freedom from establishment. But that was another period of time.
Any educated student, should understand what is a loan ... an engagement to a particular system that they will never quit until they take engagements in the capitalistic system (loans principes).
So they are stuke from the beginning ! ... are our students so uneducated ?

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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby ChangYuan » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:26 pm

I wouldn't say that people are so uneducated, but they are stuck. If you don't come from a family of means, you have no choices but to either get student loans and go to a public university, getting a hopefully middle class job after; or don't get student loans, and work low paying blue collar jobs and be struggling with making ends meet for the rest of your life.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Luke » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:15 pm

ChangYuan wrote:I wouldn't say that people are so uneducated, but they are stuck. If you don't come from a family of means, you have no choices but to either get student loans and go to a public university, getting a hopefully middle class job after; or don't get student loans, and work low paying blue collar jobs and be struggling with making ends meet for the rest of your life.


Exactly, and the cost of college in the US has been spiraling out of control. I'm thankful that I finished college before the costs rose so much and before it became difficult to get good loans.

Education is a service which produces many benefits for society and is worth investing in for the government.

Instead of paying for the Iraq War, we should have put that money into education and social programs.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Indrajala » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:14 am

Luke wrote:
ChangYuan wrote:I wouldn't say that people are so uneducated, but they are stuck. If you don't come from a family of means, you have no choices but to either get student loans and go to a public university, getting a hopefully middle class job after; or don't get student loans, and work low paying blue collar jobs and be struggling with making ends meet for the rest of your life.


Exactly, and the cost of college in the US has been spiraling out of control. I'm thankful that I finished college before the costs rose so much and before it became difficult to get good loans.

Education is a service which produces many benefits for society and is worth investing in for the government.

Instead of paying for the Iraq War, we should have put that money into education and social programs.


It absolutely astonishes me that a private university in the USA can charge $30,000/year for tuition.

I know they have student aid available, but in principle it is saying to the world, "We're really just here for rich people."
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby ChangYuan » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:15 am

Huseng wrote:
Luke wrote:
ChangYuan wrote:I wouldn't say that people are so uneducated, but they are stuck. If you don't come from a family of means, you have no choices but to either get student loans and go to a public university, getting a hopefully middle class job after; or don't get student loans, and work low paying blue collar jobs and be struggling with making ends meet for the rest of your life.


Exactly, and the cost of college in the US has been spiraling out of control. I'm thankful that I finished college before the costs rose so much and before it became difficult to get good loans.

Education is a service which produces many benefits for society and is worth investing in for the government.

Instead of paying for the Iraq War, we should have put that money into education and social programs.


It absolutely astonishes me that a private university in the USA can charge $30,000/year for tuition.

I know they have student aid available, but in principle it is saying to the world, "We're really just here for rich people."



But student aid doesn't cover enough to even pay that tuition. The missus wanted to go to NYU for school, and even with full financial aid she couldn't afford it, unless she took out a FURTHER personal loan.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Sönam » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:12 am

ChangYuan wrote:I wouldn't say that people are so uneducated, but they are stuck. If you don't come from a family of means, you have no choices but to either get student loans and go to a public university, getting a hopefully middle class job after; or don't get student loans, and work low paying blue collar jobs and be struggling with making ends meet for the rest of your life.


Sorry ChangYuan, but that is the choice ...

We are living in such a "one way" society that it seems that there is no other choice than to be trapped in ... well, then there must be an alternative.
Be an artist !, be a monk !, be a dreamer ! ...
What can we expect from studies within a system that produces such conditions ... causes and conditions gives effect, surely these effects will produce suffering.

Better think twice before to engage in !
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Clueless Git » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:41 pm

Huseng wrote:However, the purpose of post-secondary education -- in particular in universities -- is not to produce higher income earners, but ...

But the purpose of student loans is.

As Sonam said ..
Any educated student, should understand what is a loan ... an engagement to a particular system that they will never quit until they take engagements in the capitalistic system (loans principes).
So they are stuck from the beginning !

It's kinda like that the loan is the systems method of making sure it's investment in education produces a decent return.

Repayment of the loan itself is not the return on investment, obviously. The real return on the loan comes from, 'working for the man' wise, locking those with decent educations in.

The 'arty-farty' stuff that requires a decent education, the stuff that everyone would idealy like to do .. The wealthy have enough kids of their own who can emerge debt free from education, thanks to mum'n'dad, to be taking care of that.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Indrajala » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:12 pm

Clueless Git wrote:
Huseng wrote:However, the purpose of post-secondary education -- in particular in universities -- is not to produce higher income earners, but ...

But the purpose of student loans is.

As Sonam said ..
Any educated student, should understand what is a loan ... an engagement to a particular system that they will never quit until they take engagements in the capitalistic system (loans principes).
So they are stuck from the beginning !

It's kinda like that the loan is the systems method of making sure it's investment in education produces a decent return.

Repayment of the loan itself is not the return on investment, obviously. The real return on the loan comes from, 'working for the man' wise, locking those with decent educations in.

The 'arty-farty' stuff that requires a decent education, the stuff that everyone would idealy like to do .. The wealthy have enough kids of their own who can emerge debt free from education, thanks to mum'n'dad, to be taking care of that.



What an uncharitable and capitalist way of looking at things.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Sönam » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:29 pm

Huseng wrote:
Clueless Git wrote:
Huseng wrote:However, the purpose of post-secondary education -- in particular in universities -- is not to produce higher income earners, but ...

But the purpose of student loans is.

As Sonam said ..
Any educated student, should understand what is a loan ... an engagement to a particular system that they will never quit until they take engagements in the capitalistic system (loans principes).
So they are stuck from the beginning !

It's kinda like that the loan is the systems method of making sure it's investment in education produces a decent return.

Repayment of the loan itself is not the return on investment, obviously. The real return on the loan comes from, 'working for the man' wise, locking those with decent educations in.

The 'arty-farty' stuff that requires a decent education, the stuff that everyone would idealy like to do .. The wealthy have enough kids of their own who can emerge debt free from education, thanks to mum'n'dad, to be taking care of that.



What an uncharitable and capitalist way of looking at things.


It's like karma, effects may look sometime uncharitable ...
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Clueless Git » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:47 am

Sönam wrote:
Huseng wrote:
What an uncharitable and capitalist way of looking at things.


It's like karma, effects may look sometime uncharitable ...

Yes, exactly!

Please don't think I was advocating the 'uncharitable and capitalist' motives behind the loan as being good things Huseng. I was simply pointing out that it is so and, very loosely, why.

I mentioned another 'cause and effect' earlier too, btw. That 'cause' being a generation who took an education, paid for by the work of others, with no intention of repaying that via increased productivity so as they could fund free education for the generation following in their wake.

Technicaly they had a moral debt to the society that educated them. A debt on which too many welched. The fruits of that is that the 'paymasters' have switched the debt from an 'honorary' debt over to being a compulsory one.

For that aspect of the student loan the 'free lunch' attitude of the previous student generations is also to blame.

If there is any hope for a return to free higher education it probably relies upon this generation repaying their education many times over. That way education becomes a societal investment, rather than the throwing of other peoples money down the toilet, once again.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Sönam » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:23 pm

Clueless Git wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Huseng wrote:
What an uncharitable and capitalist way of looking at things.


It's like karma, effects may look sometime uncharitable ...

Yes, exactly!

Please don't think I was advocating the 'uncharitable and capitalist' motives behind the loan as being good things Huseng. I was simply pointing out that it is so and, very loosely, why.

I mentioned another 'cause and effect' earlier too, btw. That 'cause' being a generation who took an education, paid for by the work of others, with no intention of repaying that via increased productivity so as they could fund free education for the generation following in their wake.

Technicaly they had a moral debt to the society that educated them. A debt on which too many welched. The fruits of that is that the 'paymasters' have switched the debt from an 'honorary' debt over to being a compulsory one.

For that aspect of the student loan the 'free lunch' attitude of the previous student generations is also to blame.

If there is any hope for a return to free higher education it probably relies upon this generation repaying their education many times over. That way education becomes a societal investment, rather than the throwing of other peoples money down the toilet, once again.


I recall a little story,

Recently our (french) president came into a classroom and, in front of TV reporters, was very pedagogically explaining to students that they were there, at university, to found a job, to have a place in the society, and so on ...

No Mister President, I have been to school to learn about my culture and others cultures, the gift of humanity, of great beings of the path, that the reason why I have been to school ... not to get a job !

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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby Luke » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:14 pm

This thread has focused on only money so far. I think there is another way for college graduates to give back to society: They could become teachers in high schools. In many countries, there is a shortage of good teachers.

Another thing I want to mention is that young people aren't just compelled to go to college for economic reasons. Many go for social reasons. For example, many people unfortunately look down at people who did not go to college. So many young people go to college simply to remain with their peer group and maintain their social status than for educational reasons. And some women go to college simply to find a "suitable" husband for themselves.

So there are many other forces at play here other than economic ones.
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Re: The dukha of student loans.

Postby thomcoes » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:10 am

I have never take any kind of loan but it was nice reading this thread's posts as I came to know many unknown but interesting facts about education loan which could be helpful in future to take loan r at least to guide someone. But I wanted to know what does it mean by
dukha
??? Does it mean facts of student loan??
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