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Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts - Dhamma Wheel

Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:08 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:21 am

Greetings Alex,

On this subject I tend to agree with what Nanavira Thera writes at...

Notes on Dhamma :: PARAMATTHA SACCA
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=63

I also think the Venerable Nanananda's "Concept And Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" (available through BPS) gives a much better way to understand and differentiate 'concepts' and 'reality', which is aligned with the suttas, as opposed to the scholastic Abhidhamma model, which is based on the notion of two-truths (which as your sutta quotes above point out, does not exist in such a form in Buddhavacana itself).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Goedert
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Goedert » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:28 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:14 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Shonin
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Shonin » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:55 am


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Alex123
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:10 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby SamKR » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:44 pm

Last edited by SamKR on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby SamKR » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:48 pm


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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Shonin » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:40 pm


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ground
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby ground » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:24 am

Somehow "ultimate truth/reality" seems to be dependent on a "preliminary truth/reality" which seems to be kind of a hypothesis to work with. Can we specify "ultimate truth/reality" in a sense of affirmatively providing names for existing phenomena that are themselves "ultimate truth/reality"? Since names are linguistic conventions inextricably intermingled with concepts (universals) it seems impossible to find some ultimate which is not just conventional.
But if we can only specify "ultimate truth/reality" through saying what it is not then "ultimate truth/reality" is a mere negation. What does it negate? I guess it negates the "conventional" which is no different from names/concepts and the accompanying experiences in the moment of application of names by an individual. This "conventional" may be the "conventional" common in everyday life or the "conventional" of a philosophy or the "conventional" of buddhism.
It seems as if the differentiation "Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts" does not make much sense since there is no alternative to names/concepts in the sphere of communication. What does seem to make more sense is the differentiation "[unspecified] Reality Vs Concepts" because here we may be in a position to differentiate between conventional names/concepts which do refer to a directly perceptible correlate and mere names/concepts (or "fantasies") that are not so grounded on directly perceptible correlates.

Kind regards

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convivium
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby convivium » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:36 am

if ultimate reality is nibbana than we can only say what it isn't. it isn't samsara, a state of mind which conditions the bigger world. "we" won't be able to know ultimate reality (non-dual) but we will be left w/it's impressions, conviction, and entire shifts in perception. for example when we know it then there won't be any questions like this (the fetter of uncertainty). does this differ w/dzogchen and ch'an methods?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:37 am

In early Buddhism, Ultimate Truth/Nibbana is described exclusively or almost exclusively by negation. In Mahayana, there are two main schools of thought, one which speaks in positive terms and one that speaks in negative terms. Ch'an uses positive or negative according to circumstance and/or specific tradition, at best (IMO) treating such language as 'medicine' to cure a particular 'sickness', such as 'clinging to ideas of self', 'clinging to nothingness' etc. But this is the Theravada forum and we're going off-topic.

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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:44 am


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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:40 am


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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:13 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:36 pm


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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:57 pm


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Re: Ultimate Reality Vs Concepts

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:05 pm

That sounds like a balanced 'middle way'.


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