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Three marks of Existence question - Dhamma Wheel

Three marks of Existence question

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
wukong
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Three marks of Existence question

Postby wukong » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:18 pm

Greetings all. do the three marks, and especially anatta, refer to all things or merely the person? I come from a mahayana background where it is viewed that arhats can see that a person is compunded of 5 khandhas but not external objects. is this the same in theravada? I had always thought that the arahant sees the khandhas in in both themselves and external objects,

any thoughts?

many thanks in advance

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tiltbillings
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:39 pm


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altar
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby altar » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:45 pm

Really Tilt, there is no arhat or arahat, just existence.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:48 pm


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altar
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby altar » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:52 pm

It means that when considering any person, distinctions such as arhat or arahant are meaningless and useless, because instead we can focus on actuality itself. Either of that person or ourselves or whatever experience it may be.
It may to do this person is unbound, therefore he or she is an arhat or arahant. Sometimes, yes, throwing out the buddha's teachings if you are mixed up in them instead of pursuing reality.

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altar
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby altar » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:56 pm

Actually it means throwing out concepts and just sticking with the bare essentials.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:00 pm


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altar
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby altar » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:09 pm

In any case, it sounds like we are agreed, that the bare essentials are what are at hand here. :lol:
And for the original question...
Well... it's an interesting question... and it's vaguely related to the other thread on nama-rupa.
Because if we start with form... we can ask if as a khanda it refers to matter, or simply to form as perceived mentally. Or if this is a valid distinction, or one that is better not worried about.
In any case... it goes without saying that there is no self in any of the world anywhere... this would include the earth, etc... Who could fathom a self in the dirt? That's why the buddha asks us to contemplate our bodies... Essentially they rot together with the ground... And the air in our body is the same as the air outside... So this is form... And it's not ours. And it is bound up with suffering, and it is impermanent in the sense that it's not fixed and can be twisted and torn apart at any moment. And, then we have... what's the other one... feeling. There are no feelings to be found outside the body... if they are we might as well include them in the body... I mean, what is external besides form? It's the only one really. And it's only external because of our mixed up perception. Hm. So that's interesting. And naturally if you cling to form perceived as external, that's suffering as well. Because it can be taken away just as easily.

wukong
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby wukong » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:46 pm

i think we're getting unnecessarily complicated here. i thought my question was fairly straight forward. according to many mahayana thinkers the arhat only sees anatta in him/herself whereas a full buddha sees anatta in all things. does theravada agree with this? or, does the arahant perceive the three marks in all things as well as themselves? and please lets try to keep this on the same level of semantics without getting irreducible about it. remember, i'm trying to get a traditional theravada position on this rather than individuals' logical conclusions.

many thanks

wukong

Mawkish1983
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:58 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:59 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:40 pm

I think you could say that in the pali cannon the Buddha says that there is no self internally or externally (or beyond the 5 aggregates).

An arhanth would have to go pass a certain insight knowledge (sammassana nana), which applies the three characteristics to all things, past, present, future, near, far, gross, subtle etc.

So I think the same understanding applies to both.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Goedert
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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby Goedert » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:57 pm


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Re: Three marks of Existence question

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:47 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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