Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

[Acid_Trancer]

Hi
I hope someone can asnwer this question.

It is said that after one attains the illusory or rainbow body, that a person becomes deathless because the mind never seperates from the body anymore.
But because of the bodhsittva vow one has to stay in samsara either in the higher realms or comes back to this world again.

Does an enlightened master has to take rebirth in the higher god realms or in the human realms to fullfill his vows or can he be everywhere there without rebirth by staying simply in his illusory body ?

And if he takes rebirth in the human realm or deva realm, what happens to the illusory body, does he loses it and has to attain it again in the next life?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

[heart]

Illusory body is not the same thing as rainbow body. The first is method and the second is a result of the practice of Dzogchen. People who attain rainbow body don't take rebirth anymore. They continue to benefit beings as they are, for example Guru Rinpoche and Vimalamitra.

/magnus

[Adamantine]

Yeah but in Nyingma we have all these tulkus like
Anam Thubten whose prior incarnations took rainbow-body..
I suppose either they are considered purely emanations not rebirths?
Any thoughts?

[heart]

I have no idea. But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus

[Adamantine]

At that level of accomplishment I'd think one would
be far beyond "making sense"

[Malcolm]

I have no idea. But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus

Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?

[heart]

I have no idea. But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus

Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?

Since he was Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in an earlier life?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

I have no idea. But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus

Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?

Since he was Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in an earlier life?

/magnus

indeed.

[pemachophel]

As far as I understand, if one achieves Rainbow Body, one can have limitless manifestations throughout space and time. Therefore, there is no limit to the number of Nirmanakayas/Tulkus one can manifest in order to work for the welfare of all sentient beings. To think otherwise in terms of Rainbow Body is to fall into the extreme of nihilism.

[dzogchungpa]

Yeah but in Nyingma we have all these tulkus like
Anam Thubten whose prior incarnations took rainbow-body..
I suppose either they are considered purely emanations not rebirths?
Any thoughts?

Are you referring to Anam Thubten of Richmond, CA? I'm curious, who is considered to be his previous incarnation?

[Adamantine]

My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.

[Yudron]

My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.

This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.

[deepbluehum]

A rainbow body can manifest in limitless ways.

[dzogchungpa]

This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.

Thanks, you are correct. I found this:
http://www.ksbcenter.org/Pages/Tulku.htm

[dzogchungpa]

My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.

This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.

I found references to Anam Wangchen in "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" by Dudjom Lingpa

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f_usAen69oC&q=anam

Is this who you are referring to?

[Yudron]

My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.

This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.

I found references to Anam Wangchen in "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" by Dudjom Lingpa

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f_usAen69oC&q=anam

Is this who you are referring to?

Presumably. I think Anam Thubten's old bio, back when he was Tulku Thubten Rinpoche, referred to his prior incarnation as Anam Lama. But Wangchen--Great Power Anam--sounds good, too. You know, Dudjom RInpoche was an incarnation of Guru RInpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, and Kheuchung Lotsawa--so these things happen.

[greentara]

In Thailand Ajaan Panya’s remains were cremated at Baan Taad Forest Monastery. "His funeral ceremony was the largest event ever held there—an estimated 50,000 people attended to pay their final respects, including over 4,000 monks. Something extraordinary occurred on the day of his cremation. The sky was clear and cloudless. Yet, on 3 separate occasions, a circular rainbow appeared in the clear blue sky, each time encircling the sun like a large, luminous halo. The rainbow first appeared as his casket was being placed on the funeral pyre; it appeared again later when his life story was being read aloud; and yet a third time when Ajaan Mahā Boowa lit the funeral pyre. It was as though the power of his spiritual attainment had created an external, visual image to reflect the depth and subtly of his virtue for all to see"
A miraculous event also took place when Ramana Maharshi passed. At that moment a shooting star, vividly luminous moved slowly across the sky. This was witnessed by many thousands of people in various parts of India.
It appears that when an enlightened being passes there can be unusual, even extraordinary phenomena that manifests for all to see.

[Jangchup Donden]

I have no idea. But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus

Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?

When it's emanation.