How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

[DarwidHalim]

Darwid-
Saraha and Virupa don't "object" to those practices--they are indicating that they are often mistaken for the actual "Mahamudra," which is, in fact, a "result." But just because Saraha's song, for instance, talks about being misled or losing one's way in bliss, etc., doesn't mean those techniques are not valid methods on the path to the result. I guarantee that those methods were valued by Saraha and Virupa, and the other Mahasiddas as well.

You are absolutely right.

The point that I want to make clear actually is people mesh up Mahamudra and consort practice or deity yoga.

If we just talk about Mahamudra alone, it itself is free from all those stuff.

The pure Mahamudra is nicely summarized by
Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

He explained to you the complete step and all of errors in Mahamudra practice from zero to the way to realize buddhahood.

You won't be able to find any single word like consort or energy.

THat is pure Mahamudra.

But when we move to Tantric Mahamudra, things are already different, because it already enhanced or mixed up with deity yoga, ceremony, etc.

I am fully agree with you that Saraha and Virupa do not truely object the practice of Tantra to be combined with Mahamudra.

BUt if we mesh it up thinking Tantra practice is Mahamudra, consort practice is Mahamudra, Tummo is Mahamudra, they reject it.

[Huifeng]

I practice offline with the White Plum lineage of the Soto Zen school.

My teachers (and Zen in general) seem to place little emphasis on reincarnation in their "philosophy" - compared to Tibetan boasts which are heavy on references to the phenomenal certainty of rebirth, especially in reference to their claims of a possibility of no-rebirth if one practices in their tradition (to the degradation of other schools).

1. Would that make certain aspects of Tibetan Buddhism a 'counter-reformation' in regards to the Mahayana development of the Bodhisattva Ideal, or a being who forgoes parinibbana to work toward liberating all beings in future lifetimes?

2. I read a Zen teacher on Zen International responding to Namdrol's sectarian arguments on here concerning the inefficacy of Zazen to produce "full awakening" Since Tibetan Buddhism is more of a path of moral/ethical self-edification than of self-knowing (in stark contrast to Zen), can Namdrol really make such a claim?

3. Even as an earnest Zen practitioner, I question the validity in a belief in reincarnation. Read Jiddu Krishnamurti on the subject. All this rigidity makes people like us seem like a bunch of beatnik westerners fascinated by some new philosophical trend from the east.

4. I know from my studies that Dzogchen and Mahamudra practitioners consistenly refer to "the natural state". How is this natural state different from Zazen samadhi, and how is the insight gained in the tibetan natural state "superior" to insights into selflessness gained in Zazen samadhi?

Hi Beatzen,

Thanks for your questions! I'm not going to directly answer, however, the thread is already fairly long, and I don't have time to read everything right now. I hope you don't mind.

I also hope you don't mind if I offer some sincere advice, I think you will understand my intention and not take it the wrong way.
You seem very keen and interested in following the path - this is a most wonderful and amazing thing! Please continue, and do your best.

At this point, you have a lot of questions, and also a lot of ideas about stuff you've read and things you've heard about Buddhism. It seems like you are finding your legs, so to speak. And here, on this forum, there are a lot of people giving all sorts of responses. It's hard to tell who these people are, because mostly we've never met them, we don't know really who they are. I've know some of them for quite a few years now, on- and off-line. There are some people like yourself, but there are also a few people who are full time Buddhist practitioners and teachers, too. Or, those who while not full time have been doing this for a long, long time.

Please, try to listen carefully to what they are saying. If you follow a good kalyanamitra (that's including teachers, senior practitioners and other "good friends" on the path), it will help your practice a lot. Listen carefully, and have a really good think about what they are saying. Don't be in too much of a hurry to reject what they say, or to try to prove them wrong. They have come to these conclusions after decades of practice, themselves.

If you can do this, you'll learn a lot. You won't of course accept everything they say, and nobody expects you too. But, be open, and try to learn what you can. You'll go a long way. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

All the best!

~~ Huifeng

[wayland]

Kotalipa also said:

Bhadrapa said excellently:
“There is no instruction, meditation, or contemplation;
Buddhahood itself is attained
because of the beautiful consort possessing supreme joy.”

And:

When the sun and moon are seized by the eclipse
Buddhahood itself arises here
through the non-dual wisdom which
melts from the union of the prajñā and the vajra.

And:

Possessing the power of the ten wisdoms.
The space of the sublime Prajñā Queen’s lotus
is the path upon which to travel,
to return to Bhadra’s stage.

But then of course we have Dombhi Heruka's Four Syllables:

The Upadeśa of the Great Bliss of Dharma

There are three essences, four commitments, three deviations and four methods of equipoise.

The three essences:
Effortlessness;
Without contrivance;
Everything that occurs is understood as one's own mind.

The four commitments:
Afflictions are not abandoned because they are one's mind.
Antidotes are not relied upon because the mind is non-dual.
The true nature is not meditated upon because mind is without grasping.
A result is not hoped for, realizing the mind itself is Buddhahood.

The three deviations:
If there is hope for Buddhahood, it is a deviation.
If there is fear towards Samsara, it is a deviation.
If there is attachment to appearances, it is a deviation.

The four methods of equipoise:
Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed in uncontrived mind.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

The heart upadesha of the great master Dombhi Heruka called 'Four Syllables' is complete.
Translated by Lama Migmar Tseten and Loppon Kunga Namdrol.
© Drogmi translation Project 2006

Dobhi Heruka himself, however, achieved complete awakening through the empowerment.

N

Beautiful and inspiring. Many thanks for putting that up Namdrol.

[gregkavarnos]

Please see my previous links on how Saraha and Virups object them.

They don't object to the practices, but to how they are practiced.

The point that I want to make clear actually is people mesh up Mahamudra and consort practice or deity yoga.

If we just talk about Mahamudra alone, it itself is free from all those stuff.

You quite clearly do not have a teacher, because if you did they would have told you that "all that stuff" has as its sole aim the state of Mahamudra. It's insperable from Mahamudra.

Find your self a good teacher Darwid, wiki just doesn't cut it!

[conebeckham]

The point that I want to make clear actually is people mesh up Mahamudra and consort practice or deity yoga.

If we just talk about Mahamudra alone, it itself is free from all those stuff.

No, it's actually inseperable from all "those (sic) stuff," though that stuff is not essential to it.....

]The pure Mahamudra is nicely summarized by
Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

He explained to you the complete step and all of errors in Mahamudra practice from zero to the way to realize buddhahood.

You won't be able to find any single word like consort or energy.

THat is pure Mahamudra.

You should know, then, that what you call "Pure Mahamudra" is in effect the Sutra Mahamudra presentation. It is a wonderful presentation, and has great benefit. Dakpo Tashi Namgyal outlines various investigation instructions which, if practiced diligently, and with guidance from a skillful Guru, will reveal the main point, which is Mahamudra as "result," the Nature of Things, the Natural State, the Nature of Mind, etc.
It is THAT Mahamudra which I would call "pure Mahamudra," and it is inseperable with all practices, when one has seen it. It is coemergent Awareness/Emptiness, coemergent Appearance/Emptiness, coemergent Bliss/Emptiness.....and can be "described" poorly in any number of other ways.

But when we move to Tantric Mahamudra, things are already different, because it already enhanced or mixed up with deity yoga, ceremony, etc.

I am fully agree with you that Saraha and Virupa do not truely object the practice of Tantra to be combined with Mahamudra.

BUt if we mesh it up thinking Tantra practice is Mahamudra, consort practice is Mahamudra, Tummo is Mahamudra, they reject it.

Not exactly, Darwid. The practices of deity yoga, and completion stage practices like Karmamudra (Consort Practice) and the Six Yogas, including Tummo, are methods or techniques, in their own ways similar to the gradual instructions given by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Mahamudra is the essential nature of these practices, as well, the "Result." What Saraha et. al. are pointing out in their Dohas is that, due to the powerful nature of these latter techniques, which produce strong experiences of various natures, and due to the lack of understanding of the essential points, the practitioner can become attached to these strong experiences, and can mistake these for the realization of Mahamudra. This is why, in many of the Tantric Mahamudra paths, instruction in the techniques, and an effective practice period, are preliminary to the instructions in the actual Tantric Mahamudra itself. In this way, a practitioner learns to differentiate between the experiences of bliss, nonthought, etc., and the essential nature of those experiences.

Mahamudra is at all times inseperable from the path of Tantra, in fact. It's inseperable from all experience.

[Malcolm]

Mahamudra is at all times inseperable from the path of Tantra, in fact. It's inseperable from all experience.

All sentient beings are emanations of mahāmudrā,
the essence of those emanations is the forever non-arising dharmadhātu,
also all characteristics of dualistic appearances, happiness, suffering and so on,
are the play of mahāmudrā, the original dharmatā.


-- Virupa

[conebeckham]

^ Homage to Virupa, Glorious Hevajra in Person, master of Mahamudra!