Translating the Tripitaka
Translating the Tripitaka
Is this the reason the complete Chinese Tripitaka hasn't been translated to English yet?
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
I think it is just too big to realistically translate within a few decades, let alone a century.Mr. G wrote:Is this the reason the complete Chinese Tripitaka hasn't been translated to English yet?
The problem is really that even though the funding could potentially be sufficient if organizations pooled resources together to do it, in reality there are not enough qualified people to accurately translate Classical Buddhist Chinese into English.
There is also the matter that specialization is needed in translating particular sections. For example, the vocabulary and ideas of Huayan are quite different from Abhidharma. Even in the case of Abhidharma, the vocabulary of Paramartha is different from Xuanzang. So, while one scholar might translate Huayan well, they might need a lot of time to cultivate the knowledge necessary to accurately translate Abhidharma treatises. Treatises written by natives of China can also be heavily literary, requiring knowledge of non-Buddhist literature to grasp and understand the allusions and references.
Ideally, the up and coming Buddhist colleges in Asia will in time foster scholars capable of such undertakings, but even then that is no guarantee they'll be able to do such projects full-time. People get married, have children, work their jobs ... so a project that might be scheduled to take five years could turn into fifteen years or more.
The oldschool method of translation in China was to have a team working together in the same room full-time with proofreaders, editors and scribes all on hand. That's how Kumarajiva managed to translate so much. He had a reliable team to work with. They took it upon themselves to do such a project as a religious, not scholarly, endeavour. Nowadays most academic translations are done by a single individual and then proofread by peers before publication.
Personally, I think we should return to the old model and work in teams in real life. The internet might be a substitute to some degree, but having everyone in the same place at the same time will facilitate speed and efficiency. However, the majority of the few people qualified to do such things in the world probably have other duties to attend to (like their careers as academics or looking after a family).
There's another reason why things are slowly translated: most scholars of East Asian Buddhist in the English speaking world are not Buddhist.
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
Interesting, thanks Huseng. I think I read in the preface of a sutra published by BDK it would take over 100 years to translate the complete Taisho edition of the Chinese Tripitaka.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
I don't think there's much point in translating the entire Chinese canon (which one exactly, BTW?). Also, I find it a bit presumptuous to think that all who translated texts to Chinese were like living professor bodhisattvas. Let's say a few people translate Xuanzang's prajnaparamita collection. How many will want to read it? How many who could read it today in Chinese reads it? On the other hand, we have a dozen translations of the Lotus Sutra and at least four translations of the Shobogenzo, just to mention the bigger works that have fairly little use, and people love to read them. Why? Because they believe it's important. However, until the scriptures are the interest of only a handful of scholars and even less Buddhists, translations will come slowly. Compare that to the Pali Tipitaka that was translated first by the BTS and then again it's being translated by others. Because they care about it. But who cares about Xuanzang's Great Prajnaparamita Sutra? So the situation is not that bad at all. Most of the popular works in East Asian Buddhism have already been translated, many of them more than once, some even have commentary. Realistically speaking, there are so many scriptures in Chinese that it'd take a few lifespans to read them all, and most of them have not been actually studied by anyone for hundreds of years.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Translating the Tripitaka
An embarrassment of riches is no excuse for indifference, now or in the past. If Buddhists long ago and now ignored many texts it is their and our loss.Astus: most of them have not been actually studied by anyone for hundreds of years.
By the way, I recall there are 5100 or so texts in the Chinese canon. If one subtracts the overlap of many scriptures being translated more than once, how many actual different titles are there; 3000 or...??
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
Perhaps Honen was the last determined one to do so? It's said he read the Tripitaka 5 times.Astus wrote: Realistically speaking, there are so many scriptures in Chinese that it'd take a few lifespans to read them all, and most of them have not been actually studied by anyone for hundreds of years.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
I think more of it as textual evolution. Those that are not found useful enough are left alone, the useful ones survive. Of course, usefulness in this context is quite difficult to determine, perhaps something along the line of religious and cultural trends.Will wrote:An embarrassment of riches is no excuse for indifference, now or in the past. If Buddhists long ago and now ignored many texts it is their and our loss.Astus: most of them have not been actually studied by anyone for hundreds of years.
By the way, I recall there are 5100 or so texts in the Chinese canon. If one subtracts the overlap of many scriptures being translated more than once, how many actual different titles are there; 3000 or...??
I can't tell. But different translations are important sources actually as they were usually done in different eras from different sources, or even perhaps languages. Also, don't forget that a single text can be quite long, sometimes hundreds of fascicles.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
I think you know the difference between hagiography and history. It is also a matter of what Honen had as the canon.Mr. G wrote:Perhaps Honen was the last determined one to do so? It's said he read the Tripitaka 5 times.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
But hagiography makes things sound way cooler.Astus wrote: I think you know the difference between hagiography and history.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
What is this "this" to which you refer?Mr. G wrote:Is this the reason the complete Chinese Tripitaka hasn't been translated to English yet?
(Have I missed something? Spin off thread?...)
~~ Huifeng
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
And also possibly what is meant by "reading". In modern times at least, in Japan, going through all the pages, just turning them one by one, is considered by some to be "reading" that text.Astus wrote:I think you know the difference between hagiography and history. It is also a matter of what Honen had as the canon.Mr. G wrote:Perhaps Honen was the last determined one to do so? It's said he read the Tripitaka 5 times.
I remember a couple of years ago, one of my acaryas, Ven. Hsin Ding, went to make an offering of a set of the Taisho to Ven. Yin Shun, because the Venerable's older set of the Taisho was already falling apart. He'd not only read the whole thing, but parts of it to the point that the pages were falling apart. He could often cite passages and texts by Taisho vol, and page number.
~~ Huifeng
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
That reminds me of those vids I watched on Japanese pujas where they have a stack of Sutras printed and bound in the traditional accordion like pages and they will take each book and flip it wide open in the air and then flip back to close it and put it down and continue doing it with the rest. I was thinking if that's how it's read I could finish Sutras in just minutesPerhaps Honen was the last determined one to do so? It's said he read the Tripitaka 5 times
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
No, people won't read a lot of it cover to cover, but on the other hand many people would make use of parts of major texts. Just as now people don't normally read the whole translation of the Pali canon cover to cover, but make use of sections of it for citations and research.Astus wrote:I don't think there's much point in translating the entire Chinese canon (which one exactly, BTW?). Also, I find it a bit presumptuous to think that all who translated texts to Chinese were like living professor bodhisattvas. Let's say a few people translate Xuanzang's prajnaparamita collection. How many will want to read it? How many who could read it today in Chinese reads it?
Likewise, having the whole Chinese canon in translation people, both scholars and devotees alike, could use it for reference and in sections. Almost nobody would think to read the whole thing, but a lot of people would use what they need from it nevertheless. Historically this has been the case with the Chinese canon as well.
Re: Buddhist Universities/Buddhist Studies
I see your point and concur. We are fortunate at least in the sense that even if we don't have the canon in English, we have search engines to do the searching.Huseng wrote:No, people won't read a lot of it cover to cover, but on the other hand many people would make use of parts of major texts. Just as now people don't normally read the whole translation of the Pali canon cover to cover, but make use of sections of it for citations and research.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
Hi Venerable. Yes, it was split from this post:Huifeng wrote:What is this "this" to which you refer?Mr. G wrote:Is this the reason the complete Chinese Tripitaka hasn't been translated to English yet?
(Have I missed something? Spin off thread?...)
~~ Huifeng
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 125#p77066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Huseng wrote:
This is true.Namdrol wrote:
The reality, if you can actually get a teaching position, is that you will spend your days teaching world religion classes to freshman who don't care and survey courses on Buddhism, and in the evening writing papers because of the publish or die phemomena that is pervasive in academia. You will get little translation done.lotwell wrote:My fantasy is unearthing ancient texts in remote monasteries and translating them. In reality I would more likely but looking at sitting in front of a computer all day translating works no one will ever read.
N
Translations don't get as much "career credit" as monograph studies and journal articles.
Well that puts a new spin on that Honen story.And also possibly what is meant by "reading". In modern times at least, in Japan, going through all the pages, just turning them one by one, is considered by some to be "reading" that text.
Impressive!I remember a couple of years ago, one of my acaryas, Ven. Hsin Ding, went to make an offering of a set of the Taisho to Ven. Yin Shun, because the Venerable's older set of the Taisho was already falling apart. He'd not only read the whole thing, but parts of it to the point that the pages were falling apart. He could often cite passages and texts by Taisho vol, and page number.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
Those are all really great reasons, but you guys will have to excuse me if I go ahead and translate as much of it as I possibly can before I am dead.
Charlie.
Charlie.
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
That's the proper attitude! Share what you can with us Charlie!cdpatton wrote:Those are all really great reasons, but you guys will have to excuse me if I go ahead and translate as much of it as I possibly can before I am dead.
Charlie.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
Likewise. While presently in academia, as a monastic, the "publish or perish" issue is not really that much of a concern for me.cdpatton wrote:Those are all really great reasons, but you guys will have to excuse me if I go ahead and translate as much of it as I possibly can before I am dead.
Charlie.
I don't need the job to pay the bills and put my own children through school.
My main concern is being cautious about rushing to put out translations of inferior quality, which many unfortunately do.
(Fortunately, where I'm teaching, the courses are much more than just survey courses, and the vast majority of the students really are very interested in studying the Dharma.)
~~ Huifeng
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- Posts: 4209
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
- Location: California
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
My old vasanas lead me to sutras & shastras - they are so attractive to me. If others see little or no value in them - so be it.
But for those who do care, just a reminder that BDK-Numata will come out with a new Avatamsaka Sutra translation in 2 or 3 years. So Cleary will no longer be alone on the shelf. And Bill Porter's Lankavatara will snuggle up to DT Suzuki later this month.
But for those who do care, just a reminder that BDK-Numata will come out with a new Avatamsaka Sutra translation in 2 or 3 years. So Cleary will no longer be alone on the shelf. And Bill Porter's Lankavatara will snuggle up to DT Suzuki later this month.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Translating the Tripitaka
I care! This is exciting news!Will wrote: But for those who do care, just a reminder that BDK-Numata will come out with a new Avatamsaka Sutra translation in 2 or 3 years.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu