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The Way to Stream-entry - Dhamma Wheel

The Way to Stream-entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
starter
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The Way to Stream-entry

Postby starter » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:20 pm

Hi friends,

Again thanks a lot for your kind and helpful advice on my previous inquiry "what a lay practitioner shouldn't do?". I feel very fortunate to have found this forum and the nice friends, which I'll use as my sangha to "associate with people of integrity".

I'm reading a nice collection "The way to Stream-entry", found on Access to Insight [ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]. As I gathered, cutting off the first three fetters [identity-view, doubt, and grasping at rules and rituals] and cultivating the four characters: the conviction [in the triple gem], virtue (observing the precepts), generosity [to the sangha and etc.], mindfulness/discernment are needed for stream antry. No jhana seems to be required for stream entry. At this stage, in addition to reading the suttas, I wonder if I should focus primarily on removing defilements and cultivating virtues, instead of spending lots of time (now over 4hs each day) on concentration meditation [sitting and walking, I'm at a stage with rapture, close to 1st jhana]. Knowing me pretty well, some highly respectful monk recommended that I shall spend as much time as possible on concentration meditation. But now I'm not sure if that's what I should do at the beginning stage (2 months old). Your kind input would be most appreciated.

Metta,

Starter

PS: SN Chapter I - 45 Maggasaṃyutta Connected Discourses on the Path, 1 (1) Ignorance

“Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.

“Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up.”

[Added on 07/28/2013]
Last edited by starter on Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Virgo
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Virgo » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:29 pm

Hi Starter,

You are doing good.

A being or an individual does not focus on removing defilements or cultivating virtue. It is a function of panna to remove defilements, not of a person or an individual. It is also the functions of panna and other cetasikas to arise and do wholesome acts. When those cetasikas arise and perform their functions wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome actions. What being causes defilements to be removed in it's "self"?


Kevin


Reductor
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Reductor » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:55 pm

Concentration is important. Even if it is not strictly necessary for 'stream entry' it is important for the path as a whole. However, four hours a day after only 2 months on the path is an extreme, and will likely result in burn out and giving up. Unless you're an exceptionally determined personality that is.

So, maybe 1.5 or 2 hours would be more than enough. But don't just give it up entirely.

I would also recommend the five subjects for daily contemplation and recollection/reflection on the triple gem. Don't do these things in a perfunctory fashion -- bring all your attention on the reflection. In the case of the five recollections you want to reflect on the past, present and future and all the possible ways that each clause of the recollections might work out in your life. Oh, and of course you want to be very exacting about your five precepts. Be reflective and circumspect.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tions.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What you want is to see your own existence from as many angles as you can.

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:43 pm

Greetings Starter,

It's heartening to see such enthusiasm for the Dhamma!

My recommendation would be primarily to remember that there's eight aspects to the Noble Eightfold Path, so try to keep a balanced and harmonious approach to them all.

That said, Right View is fundamentally important because without Right View, it's much harder for the other parts of the practice to be "Right".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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bodom
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby bodom » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:52 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Goedert
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:31 am

Friend,

Cultivate both virtue and concentration.

I think a good source book is

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Wind
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:42 am

I'm with you starter. I'm aiming for stream-entry. Arahanship is way out of my league.

About the three fetters:

Rites and Rituals: I don't really have a problem with this.
Doubt: I have little bit of this.
Identity View: This is the hardest one.

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salmon
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby salmon » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:14 am

Hi Wind,

I know this has been discussed to death...but when one hits stream entry, those fetters dissolve away automatically. You really don't have to worry about whether or not you can do it. Focus instead on the factors that will lead to stream entry :smile:

I wish that your aspiration will come true in this lifetime.


:anjali:
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~

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Wind
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:31 am


Kenshou
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Kenshou » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:34 am

Hey, Wind,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, form is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable... One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Within a lifetime, you can do that. And hopefully more.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:42 am


Kenshou
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Kenshou » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:53 am

No argument there. Knowing the anicca-ness of the aggregates and whatever else is a good way to start shrinking those nasty words down to lowercase, I think, but there is of course a whole lot more that could be said.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:16 am

if you're meditating that much, and you've got the time to keep it up, then i say keep it up. lives change and maybe someday you wont have the time anymore, so it's good to get as deep into meditation now as you can. experience as much as you can from your practice
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

chownah
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby chownah » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:08 pm

Since you are meditating alot I recommend that you do some of it walking...you should decide for yourself how much of it to do walking....actually I recommend doing Tai Chi and if you live in an area where there might be an instructor who teaches Tai Chi as a meditation (probably best to avoid anyone teaching it as a martial art unless this is your thing and you are able to extract the meditative aspects out from the martial aspects) then you might considering learning Tai Chi as a meditation technique....this should be viewed as a long term project in that it usually takes a good student about two years of once a week instruction and twice daily practice to begin to see results although if you are meditating every day and have good physical awareness in a general sense then perhaps you will see results in one year.

Just a possibiltiy.....do consider that the goal in Tai Chi is to eliminate stress....does that remind you of anything the Buddha taught?

chownah

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Alex123
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:15 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Goedert
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:46 pm


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kc2dpt
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:09 pm

- Peter


Kenshou
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby Kenshou » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:51 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: The Way to Stream-entry

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:03 pm

Hi Starter,

By all means- keep your 5 precepts untarnished. Be generous. Have faith in the Buddha, dhamma, sangha- these are all qualities of a stream entrant.

Well done with your concentration practice. I hope you are spreading those sessions out. 4, 1 hour sessions maybe better than lumping them all together, especially in the absence of a personal teacher. If you are close to a jhana, go for it. I would happily spend 6 months in the pursuit of that as it will make things so much easier and quicker.

After that it is best to divert your attention to insight meditation to get all the required insight for stream entry:

http://www.yellowrobe.com/practice/medi ... ation.html

Good luck!

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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