Arahants Tears

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Jechbi
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby Jechbi » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:07 pm

I read the article (some of it any way). It seems a little weird, especially the part where he invites people to crawl out of their toilet holes. Maybe it's just a teaching-style thing.

I think it's worth noting that there are some things an arahant can't do, such as acting out of ill will toward another. The reason is that getting to the state of arahantship involves extinguishing certain elements of personality that are common to every ordinary (worlding) human being on the planet. Once those bits and pieces are gone, they are truly cut off and gone. That's my understanding of the teaching, any way. So an arahant can't act out of ignorance, or out of ill will, or out of greed, for example. The arahant no longer has the capacity for these things.

What does that have to do with crying? Maybe not a whole lot. Sure, the tear ducts will still function, and if a fly lands in an arahant's eye, there's no reason to think that a normal bodily function would not occur (at least I don't think there's any reason). But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

This discussion seems to have to do with how we perceive ourselves when we cry. I don't think it matters what an arahant would or would not do. But I think it's worth considering how we react to ourselves when we cry, and how we react to others when they cry. Does that reaction stem from ignorance, or from wisdom?

:cry: :smile:

mountain
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby mountain » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:15 pm

Jechbi,
I agree that the question relates to our attitudes towards tears and crying. I feel honored when others share their tears. For myself tears are a wonderful solvent that dissolve knots in the heart. I am not sure if an arahant would cry or not.

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:41 pm

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:14 am

from what i remember ananada who was not an arahant cried when the buddha died and mahakasyapa who was an arahant scolded him for this, the arhants that studied directly under the buddha seem to think there is something wrong with crying. i dont feel like looking it up but i bet the best way to find out about this is to look at angulimala and mogglana both were treated pretty badly and killed, see if they are mentioned as crying and there you should find your answer if an arahant can cry
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Heavenstorm
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby Heavenstorm » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:33 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:51 pm

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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:54 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:06 pm

I know he is thought of as one but that doesnt mean I should believe it just because others do, i have never even met him.

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:07 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:09 pm

Yes I have, through his dhamma.
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:10 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:13 pm

The dhamma of his that I have come accross I dont agree with (the part about arahants crying), thats not to say I have read all of his teachings so my opinion can change.

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:16 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:23 pm

Maybe so
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:26 pm

I am also of the view that an Arahant would not shed tears, BUT since the Buddha did not explicitly say so i will not discount it.

The Buddha:] "There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

[The Buddha:] "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth."

— MN 95

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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clw_uk
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:38 pm

The buddha has stated Arahants cant cry, at least in relation to delight or sadness, because the arahant has abandoned these.
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:42 pm

Last edited by bodom on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:48 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

User avatar
clw_uk
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:49 pm

I dont deny he cant cry if for example a fly hits him smack in the eye

:namaste:
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