How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:25 am

DarwidHalim wrote:This is even scarier.

What is the use all master explaining the PATH of mahamudra?

Again, we need to know the place when we are talking realization and when we are talking the practice part to realize that.

Please don't mix them. :cheers:



There is no path of mahāmudra. Mahāmudra is not a path and not meditation. For example, the mahāsiddha Kotalipa states:

Do not cultivate a mental meditation,
also non-meditation is not a meditation.
Beyond meditation and non-meditation,
not existing in the mind, is mahāmudrā.


And Virupa states:

That great profound term “mahāmudrā”,
whatever it’s basis of designation is, also has the label “empty”;
as moments are empty by nature who realizes selflessness?
There is no realizer, just a name, a term, a label,
Also that is not perfect, a projection of disciples,
also in disciples there is no self, similar with illusions and emanations,
“Mahāmudrā” is a mental imputation of the childish.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:51 am

Zen master mentioned we are practicing the mind to realize there is no mind.
We are practicing the body to realize there is no body.
We are practicing meditation in order to realize no meditation.

You are talking the second part.

What we are discussing here is the first part.

If we think deity yoga is mahamudra path, we will think that the visualization is mahamudra technique.
If we think tummo is mahamudra path, we will think that tummo is mahamudra technique.
We need to know as well, just for the mahamudra path, there is no ceremony, and so on.

If we don't know the demarcation between each practice, we just mix them up and things become hair wire.

We need to know when these practices are combined and when if they stand alone.

Tantric yoga is combined between Mahamudra practice + deity yoga + guru yoga , and so on.

That is the point I want to make it clear by putting all this Saraha, Virupa song.

:cheers:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:59 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Z

Tantric yoga is combined between Mahamudra practice + deity yoga + guru yoga , and so on.

That is the point I want to make it clear by putting all this Saraha, Virupa song.

:cheers:


Mahāmudra is not combined with tantric practice, it is the result of tantric pratice of the two stages.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:03 am

:rolling:

Back to square again.

:woohoo:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Jinzang » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:46 am

Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:Z
Mahāmudra is not combined with tantric practice, it is the result of tantric pratice of the two stages.


Mahamudra is the result, but also a set of practices that lead to the result, and not just the development and completion stage practices. So says every Kagyu lama I have ever met, and their view ought to be definitive, and not the view of some critics of mahamudra.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:19 am

Jinzang wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:Z
Mahāmudra is not combined with tantric practice, it is the result of tantric pratice of the two stages.


Mahamudra is the result, but also a set of practices that lead to the result, and not just the development and completion stage practices. So says every Kagyu lama I have ever met, and their view ought to be definitive, and not the view of some critics of mahamudra.


Mahāmudra is a result by whatever path you practice to get there. Sure, you can say "This is the road to New York". But being on the road to New York is not being in New York. Likewise, you can say "this is the path of Mahāmudra", meaning that if you practice this path, you will realize the result, mahāmudra.

The two stages are not the only way to realize mahāmudra. There is also Guru Yoga.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:37 am

Namdrol wrote:There is no path of mahāmudra. Mahāmudra is not a path and not meditation. For example, the mahāsiddha Kotalipa states:

Do not cultivate a mental meditation,
also non-meditation is not a meditation.
Beyond meditation and non-meditation,
not existing in the mind, is mahāmudrā.


This sounds a lot like shikantaza.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:49 am

tomamundsen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:There is no path of mahāmudra. Mahāmudra is not a path and not meditation. For example, the mahāsiddha Kotalipa states:

Do not cultivate a mental meditation,
also non-meditation is not a meditation.
Beyond meditation and non-meditation,
not existing in the mind, is mahāmudrā.


This sounds a lot like shikantaza.



The difference is that this is based on direct introduction and consort practice. Kotalipa also said:


Bhadrapa said excellently:
“There is no instruction, meditation, or contemplation;
Buddhahood itself is attained
because of the beautiful consort possessing supreme joy.”


And:

When the sun and moon are seized by the eclipse
Buddhahood itself arises here
through the non-dual wisdom which
melts from the union of the prajñā and the vajra.


And:

Possessing the power of the ten wisdoms.
The space of the sublime Prajñā Queen’s lotus
is the path upon which to travel,
to return to Bhadra’s stage.


But then of course we have Dombhi Heruka's Four Syllables:

The Upadeśa of the Great Bliss of Dharma

    There are three essences, four commitments, three deviations and four methods of equipoise.

    The three essences:
    Effortlessness;
    Without contrivance;
    Everything that occurs is understood as one's own mind.

    The four commitments:
    Afflictions are not abandoned because they are one's mind.
    Antidotes are not relied upon because the mind is non-dual.
    The true nature is not meditated upon because mind is without grasping.
    A result is not hoped for, realizing the mind itself is Buddhahood.

    The three deviations:
    If there is hope for Buddhahood, it is a deviation.
    If there is fear towards Samsara, it is a deviation.
    If there is attachment to appearances, it is a deviation.

    The four methods of equipoise:
    Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed in uncontrived mind.
    Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
    Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
    Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

The heart upadesha of the great master Dombhi Heruka called 'Four Syllables' is complete.
Translated by Lama Migmar Tseten and Loppon Kunga Namdrol.
© Drogmi translation Project 2006


Dobhi Heruka himself, however, achieved complete awakening through the empowerment.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:59 am

You are mixing up with what is called
Pure Mahamudra, and
Tantric Mahamudra.

There is no such thing called consort practice or deity yoga in Mahamudra, like what had been said by Virupa and Saraha.

Pure Mahamudra is free from all these tantric stuff, energy stuff, and free from ceremony etc. In this way, Shikantaza fits properly with pure Mahamudra practice.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:28 am

DarwidHalim wrote:You are mixing up with what is called
Pure Mahamudra, and
Tantric Mahamudra.

There is no such thing called consort practice or deity yoga in Mahamudra, like what had been said by Virupa and Saraha.

Pure Mahamudra is free from all these tantric stuff, energy stuff, and free from ceremony etc. In this way, Shikantaza fits properly with pure Mahamudra practice.


What you are referring to as "pure" mahāmudra is based on a direct introduction as the Dohakosha of Saraha clearly states "The non-dual is demonstrated by the venerable supreme Guru".

In this respect it is nothing like Shikantaza in Soto Zen, since in Soto Zen there is no direct introduction.

The practice of Shikantaza is non-gradual. Sutra mahāmudra is gradual. So they are different in this respect as well.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Jnana » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:05 am

Namdrol wrote:But then of course we have Dombhi Heruka's Four Syllables:

The Upadeśa of the Great Bliss of Dharma

    There are three essences, four commitments, three deviations and four methods of equipoise.

    The three essences:
    Effortlessness;
    Without contrivance;
    Everything that occurs is understood as one's own mind.

    The four commitments:
    Afflictions are not abandoned because they are one's mind.
    Antidotes are not relied upon because the mind is non-dual.
    The true nature is not meditated upon because mind is without grasping.
    A result is not hoped for, realizing the mind itself is Buddhahood.

    The three deviations:
    If there is hope for Buddhahood, it is a deviation.
    If there is fear towards Samsara, it is a deviation.
    If there is attachment to appearances, it is a deviation.

    The four methods of equipoise:
    Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed in uncontrived mind.
    Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
    Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
    Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

The heart upadesha of the great master Dombhi Heruka called 'Four Syllables' is complete.
Translated by Lama Migmar Tseten and Loppon Kunga Namdrol.
© Drogmi translation Project 2006


Dobhi Heruka himself, however, achieved complete awakening through the empowerment.

:good:
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:28 am

DarwidHalim wrote:There is no such thing called consort practice or deity yoga in Mahamudra, like what had been said by Virupa and Saraha.
Really??? Where exactly did you get that information from? Wikipedia?
Enjoying things,
unstained by things;

plucking a lotus,
untouched by water.

So the yogin
who flows to the root:

untroubled by things,
enjoying all things.


If you don't grasp
everything as it is,

how in the midst of sex,
will you perfect the great bliss?

Like a thristy deer
who chases a mirage

you'll die of thirst,
and never find celestial waters.


Delighting in
the rapture between
lotus and vajra -

Enjoying that,
who in the triple world
could nt have their hopes fulfilled?
Saraha in "Tantric Treasures: Three Collections of Mystical Verses from Buddhist India"
Straight from the horses mouth!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:38 am

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:54 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:There is no such thing called consort practice or deity yoga in Mahamudra, like what had been said by Virupa and Saraha.
Really??? Where exactly did you get that information from? Wikipedia?
...


Please see my previous links on how Saraha and Virups object them.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:04 pm

Darwid-
Saraha and Virupa don't "object" to those practices--they are indicating that they are often mistaken for the actual "Mahamudra," which is, in fact, a "result." But just because Saraha's song, for instance, talks about being misled or losing one's way in bliss, etc., doesn't mean those techniques are not valid methods on the path to the result. I guarantee that those methods were valued by Saraha and Virupa, and the other Mahasiddas as well.

In terms of pedagogy, of course Kagyu lamas talk about path Mahamudra, and I assure you that Namdrol knows this. It can be said, really, that ALL practices taught by Kagyu Lamas are really practices on the path of Mahamudra (unless they're teaching Dzokchen, but let's leave that alone for this discussion....)

Briefly stated, Kongtrul devised the threefold classification of Mahamudra "paths:"

Essence Mahamudra is for a very small number of disciples who have the karmic propensity to practice based entirely on the Pointing Out Instruction/Descent of Vajra Essence Empowerment. Of course, this is a transmission from the Guru.

Tantric Mahamudra includes Deity Yoga, and the completion stage yogas--the Two Stages, as Namdrol points out.

Sutra Mahamudra is basically a graduated series of Shinay and Lhaktong instructions, and ultimately a combination of the two, separate from the Two Stages--though Guru Yoga and the other preliminaries are included, and therefore it could be said to be Tantric, actually. This is the innovation of Gampopa. Some Sakyapas love to criticize it, from a polemical position. Regardless, it is a widespread and effective method of pedagogy--very beneficial for vast numbers of beings.

From the point of view of Kagyu Lamas, these are spoken of as Paths. If you look at them, these three divisions really do incorporate all the vast methods and techniques that are taught by Kagyu Lamas--everything from Lojong, Tonglen, Shinay, to Deity Yoga, Tummo, Dream Yoga, etc. But in reality, the ultimate definition of Mahamudra is the Natural State, Suchness, Ultimate Reality, etc.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Paul » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:But then of course we have Dombhi Heruka's Four Syllables:

The Upadeśa of the Great Bliss of Dharma

    There are three essences, four commitments, three deviations and four methods of equipoise.

    The three essences:
    Effortlessness;
    Without contrivance;
    Everything that occurs is understood as one's own mind.

    The four commitments:
    Afflictions are not abandoned because they are one's mind.
    Antidotes are not relied upon because the mind is non-dual.
    The true nature is not meditated upon because mind is without grasping.
    A result is not hoped for, realizing the mind itself is Buddhahood.

    The three deviations:
    If there is hope for Buddhahood, it is a deviation.
    If there is fear towards Samsara, it is a deviation.
    If there is attachment to appearances, it is a deviation.

    The four methods of equipoise:
    Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, remain relaxed in uncontrived mind.
    Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness remains without support.
    Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, remain in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
    Just like water always falling, remain undistracted at all times and in all activities.

The heart upadesha of the great master Dombhi Heruka called 'Four Syllables' is complete.
Translated by Lama Migmar Tseten and Loppon Kunga Namdrol.
© Drogmi translation Project 2006


Dobhi Heruka himself, however, achieved complete awakening through the empowerment.

N


Incredible! Those instructions are ones to keep. :namaste:
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Jinzang » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:Mahāmudra is a result by whatever path you practice to get there. Sure, you can say "This is the road to New York". But being on the road to New York is not being in New York. Likewise, you can say "this is the path of Mahāmudra", meaning that if you practice this path, you will realize the result, mahāmudra.


Mahamudra is taught as ground, path, and fruition. This sort of logic chopping is not helpful to the practitioner.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:37 pm

Jinzang wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Mahāmudra is a result by whatever path you practice to get there. Sure, you can say "This is the road to New York". But being on the road to New York is not being in New York. Likewise, you can say "this is the path of Mahāmudra", meaning that if you practice this path, you will realize the result, mahāmudra.


Mahamudra is taught as ground, path, and fruition. This sort of logic chopping is not helpful to the practitioner.



Sure: Tilopa describes the ground, path and result mahāmudra quite concisely in this passage:


Beyond all objects of perception, the nature of the mind is luminous, [basis]
without a path to traverse, the path of Buddhahood is entered, [path]
if one cultivates without an object of meditation, one will attain unsurpassed awakening. [result]
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:15 pm

All this technical stuff makes my eyes hurt.

"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
- Eihei Dogen Zenji
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:26 pm

Beatzen wrote:All this technical stuff makes my eyes hurt.


Bang... simple English killed the sophistry.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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