rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

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rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:48 am

Without going into discussing the Yid-Lus and sGyu-Lus so much (unless relevant); let's discuss mainly the Ja'-Lus (the Rainbow Body), Lus rDul Phran (Atomic Body), Od-Kyi-Lus or A'od-Lus (Light Body), and Phowa-Chenpo (Great Transference Body) in possible relation to the practice of Trekchö.

It seems that the final Fruition of Anuyoga and/or Anuttaratayoga Tantra is the Ja'-Lus; the Fruition of Trekchö is the Lus rDul Phran (but not necessarily with either the Rainbow Body or the Light Body), the Fruition of Thögal or Tögyal at the time of physical death is the Od Kyi Lus or A'od-Lus, and the Fruition of Thögal before physical death is Phowa-Chenpo.

This being said, it is taught that for the Fruition of Thögal, our Nadis or rTsa must be healthy (this is implied in Heart Drops of Dharmakaya).

Is this the same for the Fruition of Trekchö?

Could anyone reference some teachings that might say as to whether or not we need very healthy, or at least relatively undamaged, Nadis in order to 'achieve' the Fruition of Trekchö?


Some Dharmawheel reference threads (no time to post links right now):

"Rainbow Body Misconception"

"Tathagatagarbha and Eternity"

"Mind, Rigpa, and Body Relation"

"Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen"

"Difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra"
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:15 am

Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

_______ - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


However since the above three aspects are inseparable, it logically follows that we would need healthy Nadis for the Fruition of Trekchö as well?

(Although the Dharmakaya precedes, so to speak, the Sambhogakaya and the Nirmanakaya; but perhaps for those of us who are tangled up in Samsara, we would have to go through the Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya first (or simultaneously) in order to achieve any Fruition related to the Dharmakaya)


Also, what is the difference between Gzhi and Kunzhi (Alaya) (not necesarily Kunzhi-Namshe or Alaya-Vijnana)

(Some Key-words: Thugs-rJe, gDangs, rGyan, Rolpa, and rTsal (Tsal or Tsel), Ngo-bo (Ngowo), Rang-bZhin (Rangzhin), rTsal (Nadi), Lung (Prana), and Thig-le or Thigle (Bindu) )

Is this a good webpage?

http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html


Best Regards
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:38 pm

Not that I want to pursue this thread at the moment, although to link to another thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=6459&p=76433#p76433

And another key-word is Yermed.
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

Yermed - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


samapatti; viśhuddhi, dharmakāya,tilaka/bindu, svabhāva, śabda
xxxxx ; nirabhogana/anabhogana, sambhogakāya, vāyu, prakriti, ābhāsvarāḥ, prabhā
asaṁbhedaḥ, karuna, nirmanakāya, nāḍī, kāra, raśmi
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:19 am

Thanks for posting the Sanskrit translations. :thumbsup:

Now I did get a little lost somewhere between Abhasvarah and Karuna in regard to matching the terms here. :thinking:
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby mint » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:56 am

Someone's been studying hard.
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

Yermed - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


samapatti; viśhuddhi, dharmakāya,tilaka/bindu, svabhāva, śabda
xxxxx ; nirabhogana/anabhogana, sambhogakāya, vāyu, prakriti, ābhāsvarāḥ, prabhā
asaṁbhedaḥ, karuna, nirmanakāya, nāḍī, kāra, raśmi



Tashi delek,

Have difficulties in seeing Dharmakaya connected with sounds. Could it not be Dharmakaya connected with lights ?

Maybe can someone please explain, why Dharmakaya would be connected to sounds, because sound was first, like in Hindhism ?


Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Sönam » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:45 pm

Sound is first ... as explained by ChNN
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:23 am

Sönam wrote:Sound is first ... as explained by ChNN


The manifestation of - sound - light - rays - in that order made me think of this video, which corroborates what the the teachings state about this. And is incredibly interesting.

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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby ground » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:40 am

mint wrote:Someone's been studying hard.


There is no end of distractions if one doesn't take a decision and stick to it whatever may happen.

Kind regards
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

Yermed - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


samapatti; viśhuddhi, dharmakāya,tilaka/bindu, svabhāva, śabda
xxxxx ; nirabhogana/anabhogana, sambhogakāya, vāyu, prakriti, ābhāsvarāḥ, prabhā
asaṁbhedaḥ, karuna, nirmanakāya, nāḍī, kāra, raśmi


In reference to my previous post, I went back and saw where I got lost, so now I've been able to correctly draw all of the correspondences of the terminologies. Thanks again. These translations are very helpful.


TMingyur wrote:
mint wrote:Someone's been studying hard.


There is no end of distractions if one doesn't take a decision and stick to it whatever may happen.

Kind regards


True.

Yet we also have to know what we're doing (i.e. I don't know how many times I've started practicing only to later find out that I was flat-out doing it wrong). In other words, if we're just not "getting it" then sometimes it's time to go back to the drawing board and study some more.

On the other hand, there's the story about the woman who was liberated through faith alone (the famous dog's tooth story found in Jigme Lingpa's The Dzogchen—Innermost Essence Preliminary Practice).... And it's not like we have to know everything about the Light Body, etc. before we start practicing.


Dronma wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:A couple questions for the above thread, which Body is it that leaves behind only the nails and hair, and which Body is it where the physical body shrinks to the size of a dinner plate?


From what I have understood until now, the Rainbow Body leaves behind only the nails and hair. But the Great Transference leaves no traces behind, everything disappears, like Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava did. But the latter is very rare and difficult to attain as ChNN is saying often.
When the physical body shrinks to a very small size is not called Rainbow Body. Although it is a sign of very high accomplishment.
In the case I have misunderstood something, please correct me.


Thanks Dronma. Did you read the Tibetan terms for the fruition Bodies found in the initial post of this thread (first two paragraphs)? It could help put everything in context.
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:17 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:A couple questions for the above thread, which Body is it that leaves behind only the nails and hair, and which Body is it where the physical body shrinks to the size of a dinner plate?


From what I have understood until now, the Rainbow Body leaves behind only the nails and hair. But the Great Transference leaves no traces behind, everything disappears, like Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava did. But the latter is very rare and difficult to attain as ChNN is saying often.
When the physical body shrinks to a very small size is not called Rainbow Body. Although it is a sign of very high accomplishment.
In the case I have misunderstood something, please correct me.


Thanks Dronma. Did you read the Tibetan terms for the fruition Bodies found in the initial post of this thread (first two paragraphs)? It could help put everything in context.


Yes, I read it, Lhug-Pa, thank you.
But I know only the 2 Tibetan terms of Ja'-Lus (the Rainbow Body), and Phowa-Chenpo (Great Transference).
I have no idea what is Lus rDul Phran (Atomic Body), Od-Kyi-Lus or A'od-Lus (Light Body)....
In any case, I prefer Dzogchen terms to be correctly translated in English, because even English (as not be my mother tongue) is difficult enough for me. ;)
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Greg » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

Yermed - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


samapatti; viśhuddhi, dharmakāya,tilaka/bindu, svabhāva, śabda
xxxxx ; nirabhogana/anabhogana, sambhogakāya, vāyu, prakriti, ābhāsvarāḥ, prabhā
asaṁbhedaḥ, karuna, nirmanakāya, nāḍī, kāra, raśmi


Just so I'm reading this correctly, "nyingje" should be in the blank spot after Yermed, right?
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:22 pm

Greg wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Are there Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) words that would fill in the following blanks?


Trekchö - Kadag - Dharmakaya - Thigle - Essence - Sounds

Thögal - Lhungrub - Sambhogakaya - Lung - Nature - Lights

Yermed - ________ - Nirmanakaya - rTsa - Energy - Rays


samapatti; viśhuddhi, dharmakāya,tilaka/bindu, svabhāva, śabda
xxxxx ; nirabhogana/anabhogana, sambhogakāya, vāyu, prakriti, ābhāsvarāḥ, prabhā
asaṁbhedaḥ, karuna, nirmanakāya, nāḍī, kāra, raśmi


Just so I'm reading this correctly, "nyingje" should be in the blank spot after Yermed, right?


Thugs rje -- the honorific form.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö

Postby Greg » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:28 pm

thanks
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