Cops raid at the Karmapas office

[ronnewmexico]

To venture a reply Willie from another perspective...

I find nowhere that HHDL states he is a bodhisattava but only that he aspires to be one. Certainly he vows to be one. He has this vow and empowerment.
Others say what they will and they will say what they will.

HHDL....says he is a simple monk, nothing more.

So perhaps you may care to put that in that framework of consideration.
As to the spiritual progression of HHDL....his seems quite quite excellent and a great great spiritual teacher is he.
He claims not that to my knowledge.

[AlexanderS]

I thought discussion on of the karmapa controversy was somewhat not allowed on these forums, since it's neverending, hurtful to people's practice and doesn't seem to lead to any conclusions. I have my own views on this matter, but I wish there would be some place to discuss it and I wish the kagyu linage did more to resolve this issue and have the 2 candidates meet in person.

Thank you for the comment. I'm new to this forum, and can see why - it hit a nerve.

I still have questions, unrelated to the Karmapa controversy, but a conversation that Adamantine and I started to explore.

This regards high level bodhisattvas showing human fallacy. For the most part, lineage holders stuck to their own neck of the woods, but when they crossed paths it wasn't always friendly.

I am in no way trying to create a set up or an attack. This is a question that has perplexed me, and has for me defined very imperfect teachers.

The 5th Dalia Lama led Tibetan and Mongol soldiers into the Kagyu Encampment to destroy it. Many monks were slaughtered. While the Karmapa was a refugee in the mountains of Bhutan, Kagyu monasteries were forcibly converted to Gelugpa. Teachings of other schools critical of Tsongkhapa and Gelugpa were banned. Even Nyinmga lamas thought to have performed rituals to repel the Mongols were imprisoned.

My questions is this(open to anyone who cares to answer): Was the 5th DL taking into consideration the "consequences for countless sentient beings" when he made these actions? Do you see these outward violent acts by Bodhisattvas as just that - violent? Or do you think HHDL's takeover was in fact "seemingly" violent, but actually beneficial - but we don't have the wisdom to see this? Or is there an other possibility?

I don't know whether there are any rules on this board regarding the Karmapa controversy. There was on the last similar board E-sangha, but maybe there isn't here. I would like to ask people if they consider Sharmarpa rinpoche any less realiazed and more unqualified to recognize the karmapa than the dalai lama
.

[catmoon]

I don't know whether there are any rules on this board regarding the Karmapa controversy. There was on the last similar board E-sangha, but maybe there isn't here. I would like to ask people if they consider Sharmarpa rinpoche any less realiazed and more unqualified to recognize the karmapa than the dalai lama
.

It would be a good idea to separate realization from qualification here. Traditionally the qualification for selecting a Karmapa has been membership in a small group of highly placed lamas. High realization does not qualify one for the task. Membership in the group does. Since the Dalai Lama has never been a member of that group, he cannot select a Karmapa. However, once the selection has been made it is mere good manners to approve it, and HHDL has done this.

He cannot and did not select a Karmapa, nor can he turf one out. Now it seems there were some irregularities in the selection process, and no one can deny there are dissenting opinions at the highest levels. So we are stuck with two Karmapas. It has happened before and the universe did not end. There have been multiple Popes in the past, and the Catholic Church did not end.

The really dangerous error in this situation is to declare it intolerable, side with one or the other, and declare war. I believe this is about to happen, so with regrets, the thread is locked.