Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Jnana
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Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:49 am


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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:43 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:49 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:10 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:21 pm


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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:29 pm

The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:37 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:40 pm

Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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heart
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:03 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:11 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Astus
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:32 pm

It is amazing how this can be brought to quite a different discussion by picking out a single word and then setting up a whole view on it. There were three different masters quoted, all of them have extensive teachings to see how they understood (and still do) that the essence of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are no different.

"Some people make distinction between dzogchen and mahamudra, but this is unnecessary because, fundamentally, they are two names for the experience. Different lineages simply employ slightly different methods of instruction that lead to the same realization."
(Kalu Rinpoche: Luminious Mind, p. 221)

While the approaches to the three views of Madhyamika, Mahamudra and Dzogchen are slightly different, their end results are identical.
(Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche: The Bardo Guidebook, p. 79)

Both dzogchen and mahamudra are methods for meditating on the mind. ... So we see that there is little difference between mahamudra and dzogchen.
(Thrangu Rinpoche: Essentials of Mahamudra, p. 10-11)

The meditation instructions of Mahamudra and the Six Yogas of Naropa can be traced to Rangjung Dorje, the Third Karmapa. It is said that the Dzogchen instructions come from Jigme Lingpa and his nyingthig teachings. Where did Jigme Lingpa get his teachings? These were derived from the Longchen Nyingthig, which was written by Longchenpa. Where did Longchenpa get his instructions? He received his instructions from Rangjung Dorje. So we can say that Rangjung Dorje is the source for both the Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings. In his two shorter branch texts (Distinguishing Consciousness from Wisdom and A treatise on Buddha Nature), Rangjung Dorje says that whether one does Mahamudra or Dzogchen practice, buddha nature is the foundation from which both of these meditations develop.
(Thrangu Rinpoche: On Buddha Essence, p. 1-2)

But whether you follow Dzogchen or Mahamudra, please understand that ultimately there is no real difference. There is not one awakened state called Mahamudra and a separate one known as the Great Perfection. It is all of one taste within the expanse of dharmakaya. What these two words actually refer to is the basic nature of all things. Since all phenomena, all that appears and exists within samsara and nirvana, have the stamp of great bliss, it is called "the Great Seal," which is the literal meaning of Mahamudra. Similarly, since all phenomena are perfected in the expanse of self-existing awareness, it is called Dzogchen, or Great Perfection.
(Adeu Rinpoche: Freedom in Bondage, p. 32)

There’s a very interesting joke that I would like to tell you. Two masters of Mahamudra and Dzogchen were having a debate. The Dzogchen master said, “The Dzogchen is much more profound. It’s the highest path and the highest yana. There is nothing above. If you practice in your sleep, you can attain enlightenment. If you practice while you are awake, you can attain enlightenment. Even if you don’t practice, you will attain enlightenment if you have the karmic connection. So Dzogchen is much higher.” Then the Mahamudra teacher said, “Well, that sounds very good, but the Mahamudra teachings talk about one instant. In one instant, if you recognize it, you attain enlightenment in that same instant. If you fail to recognize it, then you are confused. Therefore, Mahamudra pointing-out is much more powerful because you can attain enlightenment in one instant. You don’t have to go to sleep to practice, you don’t have to wake up to practice, and you don’t have to hang around to attain enlightenment.”
(Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche: Penetrating Wisdom, p. 49)
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:32 pm

Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:35 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:53 pm


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Astus
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:59 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:05 pm


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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:08 pm

Tashi delek,


Have seen here on Dharma Wheel, much topics about the slightly differences between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

All in all i realy want to know, for once and forever, the none difference or difference between these 2 methods.


Like i was informed would be the synchronisation between Mahamudra and Dzogchen that:
Both can dwell in a state which is known in Dzogchen as to be in the Natural State which is also known as Trekchod in Dzogchen terms.

Now is a further step in Dzogchen the experiencing of the inherent Lights, Sounds and Rays

Is this experienced also in Mahamudra the above mentioned Lights, Rays and Sounds?

IMO would Dzogchen equal to Mahamudra if the latter would have inside the praxis also the 3 inseparable connected Lights, Sounds and Rays. So do they own that or don't ?

Then if they (Mahamudra) don' t have these 3 things inside their cycle of practice, then on what base can they defend their sameness with Dzogchen ?

I realy am interested herein, because if Mahamudra would then realy be the same in effect as Dzogchen, then Dzogchenpas have something additional which has no sense maybe, the experiencing of the Lights, sounds and rays.

Then how see Mahamudra practioners the Bardo and are they convinced about attaining the Rainbow Body at the moment of dying. Is this Rainbow Body also the result of their practice or do they have another Body of Attainment ?

Mutsog Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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Astus
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:17 pm

kalden yungdrung,

The topic of lights, energy and bardo are covered under the six yogas of Naropa. In that sense, it is the path of transformation and not the path of liberation. Also note what Jnana has referred to here before, that the whole tögal teaching with the lamps, etc. is a later development in Dzogchen.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:26 pm

The best meditation is no meditation

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:44 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.




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