Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:43 pm

Beatzen wrote:
Actually, it isn't. I know from my studies of history that the Zen philosopher Mo Ho Yen was banished from Tibet by the "buddhist" government there for exactly this difference.


If you wish to be more informed, read the blog "Early Tibet" -- it will add layers of nuance to your understanding.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:23 pm

Beatzen wrote:This might sound rather sectarian, but Chinese Buddhism usually constitutes a "religion" of self-awareness or self-knowledge (however you like).

It's my opinion that Tibetan Buddhism places less emphasis on self-knowing and more on moral/ethical self-edification, and so IMO is more of a cult of self-perfection.
So what (ultimately) is the difference between self-knowledge and self-perfection then?
Image
I mean, can one exist without the other?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Beatzen wrote:
It's my opinion that Tibetan Buddhism places less emphasis on self-knowing and more on moral/ethical self-edification


then you maybe quite isolated having such an opinion ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Astus » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:28 pm

Huifeng wrote:It's kind of interesting in one way. But what is perhaps more interesting in my mind is how many conceive of Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism as distinction from each other in the first place, and that a combination is therefore "ecumenial". :)

In many ways, these two traditions have been intersecting for 1000 yrs or so. In many cases, it is difficult to make any clear distinction between the two in the PRoC (inc. HK), Taiwan, etc.


From far away everything seems different. Just thing about how Chinese Buddhism is regularly separated into different sects based on incorrect comparison with the Japanese situation. It happens every time when one is stuck in mere labels.

"One" refers to the one true reality that there are not three, five, seven, or nine vehicles. Therefore it is "one."
(Gishin: The Collected Teachings of the Tendai Lotus School, 1.3, p. 51)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Beatzen wrote:
It's my opinion that Tibetan Buddhism places less emphasis on self-knowing and more on moral/ethical self-edification, and so IMO is more of a cult of self-perfection.



I think you're wrong on both counts. There's way too much of an emphasis on "self" in either analysis.

Also, it is clear you have spent zero time open-mindedly studying any tradition within the vast umbrella you call "Tibetan Buddhism". Why do you feel like such an expert then that you can make a far-reaching judgment?

This is a type of sophistry that will quickly lead you astray from the path. It is like the analogy of the types of student one should avoid being, in reference to "pots": in this case, like the full pot that nothing can be poured into because it is already full. If you really want to understand anything about Tibetan traditions of Buddhism, why would you show up on a forum with an already disdainful judgment based on some gossip from another forum, and a single possibly faulty historical reference? I suggest as a Zen practitioner you take Suzuki Roshi's wonderful phrase as a starting point: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few". May we all have a harmonious and joyful inquiry based on having open-minds: this will be the essence of any true ecumenical approach.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Huifeng » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:08 am

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
Huifeng wrote:It's kind of interesting in one way. But what is perhaps more interesting in my mind is how many conceive of Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism as distinction from each other in the first place, and that a combination is therefore "ecumenial". :)



This might sound rather sectarian...


No, it just sounds rather uninformed about Tibetan Buddhism.

N


Yes, I am fairly uninformed about Tibetan Buddhism.
So, please feel free to add, the relationship during the Yuan and Qing
would be particularly interesting to look into.

I merely wished to emphasize that Yogi Chen's approach is not at all uncommon,
and such approaches have been seen in China for hundreds of years.
(But since the comments on Chen have since disappeared from the
quoted text, it's starting to look a bit out of context.)

I don't mean to go as far as saying that there is no difference,
that would be the other extreme.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Huifeng » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:11 am

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
Actually, it isn't. I know from my studies of history that the Zen philosopher Mo Ho Yen was banished from Tibet by the "buddhist" government there for exactly this difference.


If you wish to be more informed, read the blog "Early Tibet" -- it will add layers of nuance to your understanding.

N


Yeah, that is a fairly complicated issue. Reading Hvasang Mohoyen as somehow representative of Chinese Buddhism as a whole is highly problematic. But, we've already discussed this one to death before ...

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:25 am

Huifeng wrote:Yes, I am fairly uninformed about Tibetan Buddhism.


~~ Huifeng


I was talking to Beatzen actually.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:38 am

Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
Actually, it isn't. I know from my studies of history that the Zen philosopher Mo Ho Yen was banished from Tibet by the "buddhist" government there for exactly this difference.


If you wish to be more informed, read the blog "Early Tibet" -- it will add layers of nuance to your understanding.

N


Yeah, that is a fairly complicated issue. Reading Hvasang Mohoyen as somehow representative of Chinese Buddhism as a whole is highly problematic. But, we've already discussed this one to death before ...

~~ Huifeng


Right, Hasahang only represented a strand of Northern Chan, now extinct.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Is ecumenical Buddhism realistic?

Postby Huifeng » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:22 am

Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:Yes, I am fairly uninformed about Tibetan Buddhism.


~~ Huifeng


I was talking to Beatzen actually.


...

Well, I still am fairly uninformed about Tibetan Buddhism ... :thinking:

~~ Huifeng
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