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The NKT and HHDD

Postby clw_uk » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:19 pm

Greetings


Im not intending to flare up any arguments or sect bashing here, i just wanted to know what is the controversy with the NKT and HHDL? i have tried investigating it myself but because of the techincal terms and since i know little about Vajrayana i get confused :?


Was hoping if i could have it explanied in a simple way




(p.s. if this topic is not seen as suitable then please delete it)

Metta
Those who are lust-infatuated fall back to the swirling current (of samsara) like a spider on its self-spun web. This too the wise cut off. Without any longing, they abandon all dukkha and renounce the world

Dhammapada - Verse 347
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:53 am

This thread has been unlocked so we can discuss.

Thanks,
Dharma Wheel Staff

:namaste:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:01 am

Two links - if these links do not help shed some light, then imo, nothing will; I will not be taking part in any discussions.

http://www.dalailama.com/page.132.htm

http://www.dalailama.com/page.157.htm
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby thornbush » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:11 am

From reading a 69 paged thread and on the same issue on another Forum (and websites), and by the 6th page, and a quick glance its last page, it was nothing but a clash of egos, ad hominems, active demonisation of both sides, heavy political mud slinging and very little on its actual historical/factual/doctrinal presentation and refutation. I then decided, it's more meritorious to recite Amitabha Buddha than to go on reading about it.
But then again, what do I know? :toilet:

Funny thing about the whole thing...at least in my country, some have not even heard of it or even if they did, it was received with silence or indifference. So it seems that all that hot air on the issue was more remote to certain parts of the world and online. I only had one lady who gave me a certain suspicious face when I asked her if she had heard about the issue and how wonderful her face was from a scowl to a smile when I mentioned that I belonged to the Chinese Pure Land Tradition :tongue:

My experience of visiting one of their centres was quite uneventful. I was expecting the imagery of them doing all the 'hate' stuff mentioned by NKT detractors, but lo and behold, they were doing the 35 Buddhas Confession, had a pic of HHDL and of course Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, and a courteous lady greeted and showed us around after their service. Compared to another 'Buddhist cult' that I had visited, they made it clear that questions were not to be entertained nor were they in the habit of welcoming 'visitors'. So in comparison to that group, the NKT visit was far more pleasant.

I am of the opinion that, if we can treat other systems of faith with the common courtesy and respect, why not the NKT? I don't recall the Buddha calling on His Disciples to go and cause harmful activism and breaching social codes just to stamp out people different from their system of belief other than active refutation of their systems in various teachings and Dharma Assemblies. Even with 'troublemakers' within, the Buddha's advice was to treat such with Noble Silence and for those who are Monastic, when found trespassing the Vinaya which entailed expulsion, they are asked to leave.

Again, what do I know? Just my little thought here :popcorn:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:17 am

Hi Daka Thorny, did you read the links Drolma provided?

:namaste:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby davcuts » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:47 am

The issue the NKT has with HHDL is in regards to a deity named Dolgyal/Dorje Shugdan. You can read more about this debate here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200302242339 ... 886/ds.htm

HHDL asked for his followers to stop their worship of Dolgyal. If you read the above article you can see why.

As for the NKT down below is something I wrote for the Survivors group when someone asked "what is wrong with the NKT?"

Edit: Although I wrote the post down below I got the characteristics of a cult (the leader is always right, No questioning etc) from a post Retrofuturist made at e-Sangha. I only used the characteristics he used, the rest is all me.


To answer your question what is wrong with the NKT please read below.
The NKT has all the characteristicS of a cult.

* The leader is always right

It's blasphemy to question GKG. He knows all, and sees all. The NKT
teaches he is a Buddha, the one and only one living today. Not many
people will go against the wishes of a Buddha, so when people are told
Geshe-la says: it's best not to mix with other traditions, or read
books with other teachers, most in the NKT do as they're told. The NKT
makes GKG out to be god like. Even making such statements that he
visits each NKT center several times a day. I was told he doesn't even
need to fly on planes to get to empowerments. He can just magically
appear. I was also taught if I place all my faith in Geshe-la I would
not only have a fortunate rebirth so would my family. The NKT uses the
mystical Geshe-la to have complete control of it's practitioners. Some
who have dared to question his authority have been banned from their
center. I for one had deep guilt when I saw faults in Geshe-la. I just
knew I would go to hell for it.

* No questioning

As stated above people who have dared to question GKG have been banned
from their center. Not just GKG but also their resident teacher. A lot
of which where committing sexual misconduct, but those who so dared to
report their teacher where more than likely the ones who got into
trouble. They where often told not to tell anyone or they may lose
faith. But more often then not they where told something along the
lines that they are the ones with the problems. You see GKG chose those
teachers to teach on his behalf. He is a Buddha, so he knows what's
best and has no faults. If you see faults in your resident teacher, you
are seeing faults in a Buddha. In other words all the blame should be
placed on the one seeing faults. Not the one screwing everything he can
get his hands on. It's not wise to ask questions in the NKT. Like for
instance saying you disagree with something GKG has said. Or making a
remark you don't like how your center is operated. You'd most likely
get a reply that Geshe-la has made the rules, and he knows what's best.

* The whole world is against us

The whole world is against the NKT. I was pretty much lead to believe
I'm a Jew, and HH the Dalai Lama is Hitler. The NKT teaches they have
Pure Dharma, but to make matters worse there are people who are trying
to destroy it. Namely the Dalai Lama and the FPMT. I was lead to
believe that HH the Dalai Lama had the power to ban Buddha's and even
enter peoples centers and remove Dolgyal statues. I was taught that the
FPMT was trying their best to destroy the NKT, and will even take it
over after the death of GKG. All of this left me paranoid, and I felt
it was my duty to protect the NKT's pure Dharma at all cost. I debated
against HH the Dalai Lama and of course I made a lot of donations to
the NKT to protect it from the people who are trying to destroy it.

* No one else is right

I was taught only the NKT has pure Dharma. I was taught only the path
set forth by GKG lead to enlightenment. All other Buddhist traditions
where corrupt, especially Tibetan traditions who are corrupted with
Tibetan politics.

* Financial Exploitation

Since people are trying to destroy the NKT's pure Dharma, there's no
better cause then donating to it, and it's growth. The NKT gives to no
other charity then the International Temples Project. I was asked all
the time to make a donation with a promise if I did I would always have
Dharma not only in this life, but all my future lifes to come. Just
touching a NKT built Buddhist temple would lead to a higher rebirth so
my teacher claimed. I donated all that I could. I also paid my centers
rent in the summer time while my teacher was away doing TTP. I felt
honored to do it. I was after all giving the gift of pure Dharma to all
living beings. I was even asked to take out a loan and donate the money
to my center. Thankfully I never did that. One person at my center was
not so fortunate. She gave my center a credit card under her name.
After my center folded she was left with thousands of dollars to pay
out of her pocket. Other people have given their life savings, and even
their homes to the NKT. They more than likely did so believing in the
NKT cause. Which is to give and protect pure Dharma.

* Using fear and intimidation

If you question GKG you will burn aeons in hell. If you see faults in
GKG, the NKT, your resident teacher, etc you have an impure mind, which
can only lead to the lower realms. If you say anything bad against the
NKT you will be taken to court. If you stray from the path GKG has set
forth for you, you'll also burn in hell for that. No wonder those of us
who get the courage to leave have a lot of fear at first. We're even
afraid to tell people what our experience was like practicing with the
cult, because if we did the NKT and it lawyers would sue us. The NKT
installs fear into it's practitioners. It works very well I might add.

* Brainwashing

All of the above will do just that. I was so brainwashed I needed my
teachers permission to vote. I did what was expected of me, as the
brainwashed Kadampa that I was. I believed the world was out to destroy
the NKT with a passion. To the point I used to pray to Dolgyal to
protect the NKT from the mean ol' Dalai Lama. I was so brainwashed I
felt the NKT was the only family I needed. As a result I neglected my
family and friends.

All of this and more is what makes the NKT harmful.
Last edited by davcuts on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:11 am

Warm wishes going out to you Dave. I'm sure Heruka will be in and see this. :heart:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby davcuts » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:14 am

thornbush wrote:
My experience of visiting one of their centres was quite uneventful. I was expecting the imagery of them doing all the 'hate' stuff mentioned by NKT detractors, but lo and behold, they were doing the 35 Buddhas Confession, had a pic of HHDL and of course Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, and a courteous lady greeted and showed us around after their service. Compared to another 'Buddhist cult' that I had visited, they made it clear that questions were not to be entertained nor were they in the habit of welcoming 'visitors'. So in comparison to that group, the NKT visit was far more pleasant.



Thornbush I respect your views but you only visited the NKT one time. I did everything for my center, and one of the things I loved to do most is welcome newbies to the group. I was instructed to never mention to the newbies about the huge disagreement with HHDL regarding Dolgyal. Only until people had attended for awhile would we let them know what an evil man HHDL is. If by chance they already where aware I was instructed to down play it, and say HHDL practices as he sees fit and so does the NKT. Maybe that's changed since the NKT protested HHDL last year by standing outside with protest signs calling him a liar. Of course they where standing right next to supporters of the communist Chinese government.

I am surprised that they had an image of HHDL at their center. I however suggest you keep that bit of information to yourself. If not GKG may very well disrobe the resident teacher there. Or at the very least send him/her to be reprogrammed.

Chances are if you had spent more time with the NKT you would have a better understanding why people are critical of it. Practitioners of the NKT are some of the nicest people a person could ever meet. I don't want people to discriminate against them at all. One of my best friends is an NKT monk. I do however want to be protected Dolgyal. I want nothing to do with his practice. IMHO it's best that all discussion of him should be banned from this group. If not all Dharma Wheel will become is another place for the NKT to come and spread their propaganda. I for one have heard enough of it to last a lifetime.
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:17 am

Indeed Dave, it's been done. Speaking for myself only right now, I would like for everyone to be very clear why policies are in place. I would like to be totally transparent about policies I help develop and carry out.

Thanks for input from all /\
Please continue to share as you see fit.
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:20 am

davcuts wrote:Chances are if you had spent more time with the NKT you would have a better understanding why people are critical of it. Practitioners of the NKT are some of the nicest people a person could ever meet. I don't want people to discriminate against them at all. One of my best friends is an NKT monk. I do however want to be protected Dolgyal. I want nothing to do with his practice. IMHO it's best that all discussion of him should be banned from this group. If not all Dharma Wheel will become is another place for the NKT to come and spread their propaganda. I for one have heard enough of it to last a lifetime.


This is an important point that you raise, Dave. What I would like to focus on is the conversations that we would like to avoid, rather than banning people. People are free to do as they please, but we are weeding out discussion topics that may not be appropriate for this forum.
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby thornbush » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:50 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Hi Daka Thorny, did you read the links Drolma provided? :namaste:

Yes dearest Dakini-la, a long time ago. No comments on their site.

davcuts,
Appreciate your comments. As I kept repeating, "What do I know"..as I am just an observer of people's activities and not into their inner circles...so for that I would credit you for having far better insight and info on them.
I do however want to be protected Dolgyal. I want nothing to do with his practice.

Indeed, once someone told me that the "Dharma protects those that defends and upholds it". What fear can there be when one lives by that axiom? With all the profound practices of Vajrayana, who/what is Dolgyal after all? Especially when you disassociate yourself from it? Have not the Buddha portrayed Himself as a 'father' who cares for His 'children'?
http://www.fodian.net/world/262_16.html
"I am the father of this world, saving those who suffer and are afflicted."


Enuf said from this old cat :crazy: and back to reciting Amitabha Buddha.... :buddha2:

Namo Amitabha Buddha!
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby clw_uk » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:17 pm

Greetings


Thank you all for your information, i think i understand the situation a lot better now



Davcuts im sorry to hear about your experience, i hope that it hasnt caused to much dukkha upon you


Metta
Those who are lust-infatuated fall back to the swirling current (of samsara) like a spider on its self-spun web. This too the wise cut off. Without any longing, they abandon all dukkha and renounce the world

Dhammapada - Verse 347
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Luke » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:14 am

thornbush wrote:With all the profound practices of Vajrayana, who/what is Dolgyal after all? Especially when you disassociate yourself from it?

Exactly. I'm a mere beginner at Vajrayana, but I see no reason to get involved with Dolgyal. No Tibetan deity is going to be any greater than Chenrezig, Tara, Shakyamuni, Amitabha, Mahakala, Vajrayogini, Vajrasattva, Guru Rinpoche, etc. already are, so why take on what might be a serious risk with a new one? There's so much to lose and so little to gain. Nothing bad ever comes from doing Chenrezig practices, for example.

Also, I have tremendous respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama. I would need a really good reason to disagree with him, and I don't see any reason to at this point.

Om Mani Peme Hung
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Ban of dorje shugden.

Postby Caz namyaw » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:58 pm

Its an enormous shame that another buddhist website has to be dragged into this mess again, have some people no respect for the choices and lineage practise of shugden buddhists ? just because one incredibly powerful lama says so why does everyone have to jump on the bandwagon and apply this appauling act of sectarianism in order to counter so called sectarianism, no topic should be free from impartial observation, I dont know wether its been considered or not but how would it feel to come across an good looking buddhist chat site only to find that the particular sect of buddhism you practise has been labeled of as a cult and as evil demon worship, most people couldnt give a rats ass what the dalai lama does but when his decreements affect your life your tune soon changes, according to traditional buddhism what the dalai lama has done and is doing is a huge break with lineage and has done more bad then good, so why is it the trouble maker gets a stay of amnesty and the opressed in this personal campaign have to be jeered at by TOS when ever they get into a buddhist website, this is down right unfair and will exclude many practitoners.

So instead of pandering to one side or the other why could it not be of a neutral presentation and give all buddhists the equality they deserve instead of sectarian underhand tactics to discriminate against them.

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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby davcuts » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:29 am

Here we go with the Dalai Lama bashing. Who's discriminating? If I've said something wrong about the NKT then please prove me wrong. The NKT's problems go far beyond some spirit. If anything he's the least of the cults problems. It's funny also how the NKT always seem to protest HH the Dalai Lama when one of their teachers screws everything he can get his hands on. In this case it was Gen-la Samden, before that it was Neil Elliot. Both of which where chosen by KG to be his replacement. What better way to do damage control then to focus on that mean ol' Dalai Lama. It's sad to see how people are being manipulated. So Caz feel free to protest all you want, but please tell me if KG is an emanation of Tsongkapa why on earth did he not know his chosen teachers where committing sexual misconduct? Could be he knew but did nothing about it. Please share with me your vast knowledge. Please keep in mind I don't want to debate about your buddy Shugden. He only seems important to the NKT when they have a scandal to hide.

Take care,
David
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:50 am

davcuts wrote:Here we go with the Dalai Lama bashing. Who's discriminating?


I tend to agree. No one here was bashing your master Caz, yet immediately you jump in with a negative remark about HHDL. This is evidence of why online communities repeatedly decide that they don't want to deal with this issue at all.

Caz you really need to take a look at your contributions to the problems and potential solutions if you honestly want communication and resolution to this issue. Aggressive behavior like this doesn't speak well for your cause. I have never publicly badmouthed your guru and you know you and Dhar have always been welcomed at my little buddhist webgroup with open arms. We just don't discuss this controversy. I'm led to believe it's still for good reason, too.

:namaste:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Caz namyaw » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:13 am

davcuts wrote:Here we go with the Dalai Lama bashing. Who's discriminating? If I've said something wrong about the NKT then please prove me wrong. The NKT's problems go far beyond some spirit. If anything he's the least of the cults problems. It's funny also how the NKT always seem to protest HH the Dalai Lama when one of their teachers screws everything he can get his hands on. In this case it was Gen-la Samden, before that it was Neil Elliot. Both of which where chosen by KG to be his replacement. What better way to do damage control then to focus on that mean ol' Dalai Lama. It's sad to see how people are being manipulated. So Caz feel free to protest all you want, but please tell me if KG is an emanation of Tsongkapa why on earth did he not know his chosen teachers where committing sexual misconduct? Could be he knew but did nothing about it. Please share with me your vast knowledge. Please keep in mind I don't want to debate about your buddy Shugden. He only seems important to the NKT when they have a scandal to hide.

Take care,
David



Dave you have said many things wrong about the nkt, when was the last time you where actually personally involved with them times change and organisations do to, holding personal grudges or vendettas really doesnt help resolve anyones issues especially when your amongst a group who applify the negativity to make it unrecognisable :zzz:
Geshe la has said numerous times that it is the responsibility of your selves to keep your own vows if a certain person makes an issue with which to break them that is their problem, and yes it does affect the people around them which is very unfortunate, and to how geshe la did not know perhapes it is damaging for things like this to happen its mostly the case that in any place or organisation a knee jerk reaction is taken......it happens everywhere no place is without its problems however people try to get past this and build a better future.
Oh yes i know why you dont want to debate because its convenient for you not to its convenient for you to scape goat the nkt as a demon worshipping cult because someone else says so and then not disscuss it.

As for teachers and sexual misconduct perhapes you should start a lama osel tedzin suvivors group as well.
But perhapes you should be made aware as well dave that the shugden issue isnt a cover up for the nkt inner problems there is actually a genuine situation you regularly talk about how the nkt is a blind faith cult but perhapes you could also see how adversly affective it is to those who have just wanted to practise their lineage and are now vicitims or door to door searches and pettitons.

Peace dave

xxx
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:59 pm

Note: this thread isn't a reflection of the manner in which the conversation has actually taken place. Posts from other places have been moved into this discussion.

:namaste:
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby clw_uk » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:35 pm

This is obviously a contentious issue and even though im a Theravadin i thought i would offer some input and i must stress im not taking any "sides", this is for everyone

I think that its important to remember metta and karuna when such difficult clashes between, shall we say, ideas of practice occur

Let us not forget the Buddhas advice to have loving-kindness and compassion for those who abuse and critize us

"Hatred cant be stopped by more hatred but by love alone"


Im not saying to pretend you all agree but i dont see any reason why there has to be "sect" bashing and name calling, if we can accept there are differences and leave it at that, i feel it can only be good for everyone

Such issues have arisen before in Buddhism, take the whole Theravada V Mahayana thing with Theravada being classed as a "lesser vehicle" for example, not the same situation but similar lines and yet, for the most part, Mahayanaists and Theravadins have very fruitful and wholesome interactions because they got past the differences

I would also like to add that, as the OP of this thread, it wasnt my intention to cause arguments, i merely wanted to understand what the situation was, it wasnt a one sided judgemental intention/thread

Metta to you all :smile:
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Those who are lust-infatuated fall back to the swirling current (of samsara) like a spider on its self-spun web. This too the wise cut off. Without any longing, they abandon all dukkha and renounce the world

Dhammapada - Verse 347
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Re: The NKT and HHDD

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Hi Craig,

Yes, this discussion always breeds negativity. It's such a shame, and I wish it were different. It's been over a decade and there's no resolution in sight.

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