How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:33 pm

Beatzen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!



I did not do 12 years, but i lived alone for three years and half years in a cabin in the woods and never left. And for the final year and a half, I spoke to and saw no one.

It is not hard, but not east to readjust find work. and so on


That, to me, is so interesting. You must have emerged from that quite changed.


Being in retreat was very interesting. One of the happiest times of my life. I was very relaxed. That experience has informed my practice ever since.

Most important point of practice is to be relaxed but sharp.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:35 pm

Just for myself, what do you mean by "sharp"?
"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
- Eihei Dogen Zenji
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:38 pm

Beatzen wrote:Just for myself, what do you mean by "sharp"?


neither agitated nor lethargic
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:Just for myself, what do you mean by "sharp"?


neither agitated nor lethargic


That's what I thought you meant. What's the longest period of your life you had mental silence? (I heard an interview someone asked pema chodron this question. She said 'a year')
"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Virgo » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:55 pm

kirtu wrote:So you mean this yin-yang? Taoism is pretty much a physicallist system because energy of various kinds (I'm thinking of ch'i here) is actually physical. Yin-yang is a description of the possibilities of change in the universe.


Which ying-yang?




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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:17 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,
Zen White Plum Asanga ?


Kalden -

The White Plum Asangha is a diverse group of Zen teachers who were students of Maezumi Roshi. Most of them are pretty to very traditional. Some are pretty radical or modernist. Daido Roshi said that he was a radical traditionalist. Some White Plum teachers mention sutras in almost every teisho. Other's don't. Most quote from Dogen and the koan collection extensively.

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:40 pm

Beatzen wrote:I don't know. The academic discussion turned me off from looking into the sutra's meaning. I prefer the Heart Sutra. It's more familiar to me.

Sonam, are you calling all Zen Buddhists heretics, or just Matsumoto Shiro?


You did'nt get the sense of what I have said ...

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:00 am

In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:15 am

Beatzen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:Just for myself, what do you mean by "sharp"?


neither agitated nor lethargic


That's what I thought you meant. What's the longest period of your life you had mental silence? (I heard an interview someone asked pema chodron this question. She said 'a year')



Never. The mind's job is to think and have thoughts. Thoughts are not a problem.

If what she said is true, I wonder how she managed to make to the bathroom, or eat food.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Virgo » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:15 am

Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.

Fully agree.

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:31 am

Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



it's probably my western naivete.

I thought the taoist-influence of 'naturalness' in zen meditation had some bearing on the 'natural state' that mahamudra and dzogchen allude to. But now I see i'm mistaken.

One of the things I enjoy about zazen is it's naturalness, it's not-searching quality. I find that other schools teach styles of meditation that require much more exertion. It just seemed apparent to me that Zen's approximation to wu-wei as it pertains to buddhist practice was a good fit for me.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:36 am

Beatzen wrote:
Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



it's probably my western naivete. I know these two things.

I thought the taoist-influence of 'naturalness' in zen meditation had some bearing on the 'natural state' that mahamudra and dzogchen allude to.



There is much less Taoist influence on Zen/Chan than most people realize. In particular, most people do not realize that so called Zen arts in Japan, really come from the Neo-confucian artistic revival of the Sung dynasty. Calligraphy, and martial arts such as swordsmanship and archery, as well as riding, and so on, are the arts of the Confucian gentleman.

"Natural state" is a translation of a term "gnas lugs", which in turn is a translation of the Sanskrit term "tattva" or bhutatā, both meaning "reality".
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:45 am

Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



Well, actually I disagree, I think Kagyu Mahāmudra and Chan/Zen have a great deal in common.

Dzogchen on the other hand is a different animal.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:47 am

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



Well, actually I disagree, I think Kagyu Mahāmudra and Chan/Zen have a great deal in common.

Dzogchen on the other hand is a different animal.


I can dig that.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:59 am

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



Well, actually I disagree, I think Kagyu Mahāmudra and Chan/Zen have a great deal in common.

Dzogchen on the other hand is a different animal.


thats funny. i was reading a book on kagyu mahamudra before i started focusing on zen.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby ground » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:53 am

Dhyana Master Yüan says: "If mind is not produced, what need is there for cross-legged sitting in dhyana?"

The Bodhidharma Anthology
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:13 am

Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Shikantaza are just same method of meditation. They are basically "naked or bared awareness" meditation to realize the clear light straight away from the start.

Mahamudra has 3 parts: Ground, Path, Fruit.

The Path is basically same with Shikantaza.

Mahamudra has these Ground and Fruit, which really give the practitioners solid background from the theoretical point of view.

Shikantaza, based on my best knowledge, they don't explain it in a very structural way. They are more to the path, straight away, and don't put much attention from the theoretical point of view. They have Genkojoan for example, but that one is a bit different with how Mahamudra explain the thing.

Dzoghchen is actually very wide term. It has a meditation looking your reflection, or looking in between your thought. However, basically to me they are same. Direct path to realize the clear light.

Three of them have differences here and there, but they are minor.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:23 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Shikantaza are just same method of meditation.


Not even remotely.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:25 am

The Song of Mahamudra

by the Mahasiddha Tilopa

Mahamudra is beyond all words
And symbols, but for you, Naropa,
Earnest and loyal, must this be said.

The Void needs no reliance,
Mahamudra rests on nought.
Without making an effort,
One can break the yoke
Thus gaining Liberation.

If one sees nought when staring into space,
If with the mind one then observes the mind,
One destroys distinctions
And reaches Buddhahood.

The clouds that wander through the sky
Have no roots, no home; nor do the distinctive
Thoughts floating through the mind.
Once the Self-mind is seen,
Discrimination stops.

In space shapes and colors form,
But neither by black nor white is space tinged.
From the Self-mind all things emerge, the mind
By virtues and by vices is not stained.

The darkness of ages cannot shroud
The glowing sun; the long kalpas
Of Samsara ne'er can hide
The Mind's brilliant light.

Though words are spoken to explain the Void,
The Void as such can never be expressed.
Though we say "the mind is a bright light,"
It is beyond all words and symbols.
Although the mind is void in essence,
All things it embraces and contains.

Do nought with the body but relax,
Shut firm the mouth and think of nought.
Empty your mind and think of nought.
Like a hollow bamboo
Rest at ease your body.
Giving not nor taking,
Put your mind at rest.
Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to nought.
Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.

The practice of Mantra and Paramita,
Instruction in the Sutras and Precepts,
And teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring
Realization of the Innate Truth.
For if the mind when filled with some desire
Should seek a goal, it only hides the Light.

He who keeps Tantric Precepts
Yet discriminates, betrays
The spirit of Samaya.
Cease all activity, abandon
All desire, let thoughts rise and fall
As they will like the ocean waves.
He who never harms the Non-abiding
Nor the Principle of Non-distinction,
Upholds the Tantric Precepts.

He who abandons craving
And clings not to this or that,
Perceives the real meaning
Given in the Scriptures.

In Mahamudra all one's sins are burned;
In Mahamudra one is released
From the prison of this world.
This is the Dharma's supreme torch.
Those who disbelieve it
Are fools who ever wallow
In misery and sorrow.

To strive for Liberation
One should rely on a Guru.
When your mind receives his blessing
Emancipation is at hand.

Alas, all things in this world are meaningless,
They are but sorrow's seeds.
Small teachings lead to acts;
One should only follow
Teachings that are great.

To transcend duality
Is the Kingly View;
To conquer distractions is
The Royal Practice;
The Path of No-practice
Is the Way of Buddhas;
He who treads that Path
Reaches Buddhahood.

Transient is this world;
Like phantoms and dreams,
Substance it has none.
Renounce it and forsake your kin,
Cut the strings of lust and hatred,
Meditate in woods and mountains.
If without effort you remain
Loosely in the "natural state,"
Soon Mahamudra you will win
And attain the Non-attainment.

Cut the root of a tree
And the leaves will wither;
Cut the root of your mind
And samsara falls.

The light of any lamp
Dispels in a moment
The darkness of long kalpas;
The strong light of the mind
In but a flash will burn
The veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not
The truth of what's Beyond the mind.
Whoever stives to practice Dharma
Finds not the truth of Beyond-practice.
To know what is Beyond both mind and practice,
One should cut cleanly through the root of mind
And stare naked. One should thus break away
From all distinctions and remain at ease.

One should not give or take
But remain natural,
For Mahamudra is beyond
All acceptance and rejection.
Since the Alaya is not born,
No one can obstruct or soil it;
Staying in the "Unborn" realm
All appearance will dissolve
Into the Dharmata, all self-will
And pride will vanish into nought.

The supreme Understanding transcends
All this and that. The supreme Action
Embraces great resourcefulness
Without attachment. The supreme
Accomplishment is to realize
Immanence without hope.

At first a yogi feels his mind
Is tumbling like a waterfall;
In mid-course, like the Ganges
It flows on slow and gentle;
In the end, it is a great
Vast ocean, where the Lights
Of Son and Mother merge in one.
Only a fool would believe that cutting a block of cheese into three pieces gives three different types of cheese.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby AlexanderS » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:44 am

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:In my opinion Mahamudra and even more so Dzogchen have very little in common with Zazen.
So much so that I think it is really odd that folks think they have a lot in common.
If you ask me they are all three completely different animals.



Well, actually I disagree, I think Kagyu Mahāmudra and Chan/Zen have a great deal in common.

Dzogchen on the other hand is a different animal.


Namdrol can you point me to a thread or info, that explains the differences betweeen Dzogchen and Mahamudra? Also would you say that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra?
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