How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby tomamundsen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I'd love to get into Dogen, but I'm only half way through this great Alan Watts book right now.


Why not drop Watts and dive into the Shobogenzo with a commentary?

this
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:37 pm

kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:Then I must be progressing because it's become my favorite. I think it's probably the most straight-forward and profound sutra I've ever come across.


:twothumbsup:

I'd love to get into Dogen, but I'm only half way through this great Alan Watts book right now.


Which one? Do you mind if I ask why you like Watts?

Kirt


I wish I could find a LGBT practice group. I live in a really conservative, str8 area though.

Reasons I like Alan Watts:
1. He's sexy.
2. His voice is Sexier.
3. He's a westerner, and I like his western interpretations of eastern systems. I don't take his interpretation to heart. As he said of himself "I'm not a real fake, I'm a genuine foney."

I don't know why I don't just drop Watts. I read "The Book," given to me when I was in hospital (I have a genetic blood clotting disorder, and had a pulminary embolism last year)
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:40 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.


Philosophy is not realization. Critical Buddhism can be too critical.
Thought that philosophy would have the meaning of, looking or proving the reason why and in that way it is realizing something which can be worked out further on. So we have investigation done by karma mind and realisation about that by non- karma mind. Most of us need the forerunner like study (philosophy like Mind only, Madyamika etc.) to get fixed in the saddle .

Buddhism never can be too critical regarding investigations about the reason why. It' s nice to have a talk with the Brahman along the Ganga in India and especially in the place Benares.

You can definitely attain realization through Zen Buddhist practice though.
Yes everybody could attain enlightenment and i am interested in the way / path of enlightenment how it is explained in the White Plum Asanga. Maybe our Beatzen can make a hint in that direction ..... ;)


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I'm only a student. It's exceeding my brief to give you a distillation of the teachings of the Lineage I practice with. If you're interested, why don't you contact a teacher in thay lineage.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!
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Re: Reincarnation, Zen, etc.

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:42 pm

Note that the terminology I used is mostly from Tibetan Buddhist exegesis although you can find this terminology throughout Mahayana studies (I'm refering specifically to the mention of the Vaibhasika view).

Beatzen wrote:
kirtu wrote:The perceived world is functional and is more or less really composed of atoms, etc. (essentially the Vaibhasika view but Zen is also heavily influenced by Mind Only teaching).


How does this relate to the Taoist view of fluidity and movement? I have only been earnestly studying for two years now, and I suppose if one were to pose the model of modern physics, Zen conceives the world more as waves than particles.


So you mean this yin-yang? Taoism is pretty much a physicallist system because energy of various kinds (I'm thinking of ch'i here) is actually physical. Yin-yang is a description of the possibilities of change in the universe.

I can't really respond to Namdol's question of which form of Samadhi I was talking about, since I don't completely comprehend what is meant by "tantric."


Tantra means continuity and refers to the continuity of teachings beyond the sutras or the continuity of mind or we could also say the indivisibility of mind and energy (but not energy in the sense commonly used.

Remember, I'm not familiar with that branch of Buddhist terminology. I will explain, however, that I am under the impression that we are discussing a similar experience of yogic awareness and eventually, certainty that arises from meditation on anatta


Meditation on selflessness is one of the ways that this yogic awareness can arise.

Kirt
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:48 pm

So you mean this yin-yang? Taoism is pretty much a physicallist system because energy of various kinds (I'm thinking of ch'i here) is actually physical. Yin-yang is a description of the possibilities of change in the universe.


I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. First I need to clarify what we mean by Tao. Is it the temporal/sequential Tao of Confucius or the Substrative Tao of Lao-tzu?

I was speaking more of a sequential Tao. I was under the impression that taoists look at the world as if it isn't composed of stable particles, but is actually one unified movement. I suppose it is similar to saying that we do not experience multiple incarnations, but we experience a seamless continuity of consciousness.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:50 pm

Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!


Nuts? She wanted to attain enlightenment in order to relieve the entire world of suffering.

We all have our life and it is slowly or rapidly winding down. Since we only actually experience the present moment, one day we will arrive at death and in a sense it will arrive suddenly. Then our mind will be blown to a different body by karma. Or, if you like, we will just dissolve.

So what do we do next (like in this next moment)?

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 pm

Beatzen wrote:
I'm only a student. It's exceeding my brief to give you a distillation of the teachings of the Lineage I practice with. If you're interested, why don't you contact a teacher in thay lineage.


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Whereas i am interested, i am not a seeker for Zen methods. This because i am fine within Dzogchen.
But because of you and your thread here, i was thinking, yeh that would be nice if the person of the Zen Practice Lineage could tell us some more about it. That experience would give me more insight into the/ your matter........


Nevertheless do i wish you success with your practice. :)


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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Virgo » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 pm

kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!


Nuts? She wanted to attain enlightenment in order to relieve the entire world of suffering.

We all have our life and it is slowly or rapidly winding down. Since we only actually experience the present moment, one day we will arrive at death and in a sense it will arrive suddenly. Then our mind will be blown to a different body by karma. Or, if you like, we will just dissolve.

So what do we do next (like in this next moment)?

Kirt

Yeah but you don't have to go to a cave, you can practice tantra.

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:53 pm

Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!



I did not do 12 years, but i lived alone for three years and half years in a cabin in the woods and never left. And for the final year and a half, I spoke to and saw no one.

It is not hard, but not east to readjust find work. and so on
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:56 pm

Beatzen wrote:
So you mean this yin-yang? Taoism is pretty much a physicallist system because energy of various kinds (I'm thinking of ch'i here) is actually physical. Yin-yang is a description of the possibilities of change in the universe.


I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. First I need to clarify what we mean by Tao. Is it the temporal/sequential Tao of Confucius or the Substrative Tao of Lao-tzu?


Lao-tzu. I haven't had teaching by Confucians.

I was speaking more of a sequential Tao. I was under the impression that taoists look at the world as if it isn't composed of stable particles, but is actually one unified movement. I suppose it is similar to saying that we do not experience multiple incarnations, but we experience a seamless continuity of consciousness.


I'm not sure. My Taoist teacher focused on meditation (and martial arts) and didn't really deal with philosophy.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Pero » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:01 pm

Namdrol wrote:I did not do 12 years, but i lived alone for three years and half years in a cabin in the woods and never left. And for the final year and a half, I spoke to and saw no one.

But how did you get food then?

It is not hard, but not east to readjust find work. and so on

Yeah that's what would worry me most if I'd go on such a retreat. Did it take long for you to get back into the rhytm of "normal" life?
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:08 pm

Beatzen wrote:I wish I could find a LGBT practice group.


Well these are mostly useful to get LGBT people started in practice. The world has changed (the US finally is approaching Holland from many decades ago with respect to tolerance at least in the major cities).

Reasons I like Alan Watts:
... As he said of himself "I'm not a real fake, I'm a genuine foney."


Well Watts can get people going.

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:14 pm

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I did not do 12 years, but i lived alone for three years and half years in a cabin in the woods and never left. And for the final year and a half, I spoke to and saw no one.

But how did you get food then?

It is not hard, but not east to readjust find work. and so on

Yeah that's what would worry me most if I'd go on such a retreat. Did it take long for you to get back into the rhytm of "normal" life?



I never did.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Virgo wrote:Yeah but you don't have to go to a cave, you can practice tantra.


Unless we are richer than Marpa we have to live in a cave equivalent. Living in normal circumstances in the US is just too expensive.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:22 pm

kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!


Nuts? She wanted to attain enlightenment in order to relieve the entire world of suffering.

We all have our life and it is slowly or rapidly winding down. Since we only actually experience the present moment, one day we will arrive at death and in a sense it will arrive suddenly. Then our mind will be blown to a different body by karma. Or, if you like, we will just dissolve.

So what do we do next (like in this next moment)?

Kirt


thanks for putting it that way. it makes her devotion so much more epic. I love Palmo.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:25 pm

Pero wrote:But how did you get food then?


It was delivered once a month.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:29 pm

kirtu wrote:Lao-tzu. I haven't had teaching by Confucians.


The Analects describe, though this is a rough paraphrase: "A man can study the Tao in the morning, and die in the evening"

I thought that this sort of Tao is relevant because it highlights the characteristic of anicca. To me, it also implies emptiness as it pertains to substantiality and the substrate of existence.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Virgo » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:

I never did.

This is evident from your natal chart. :namaste:


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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I don't know why, but Alan Watts is one of my heros. Next to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. I wish I had the balls to spend 12 years living like a hermit in a cave. That's Nuts!



I did not do 12 years, but i lived alone for three years and half years in a cabin in the woods and never left. And for the final year and a half, I spoke to and saw no one.

It is not hard, but not east to readjust find work. and so on


That, to me, is so interesting. You must have emerged from that quite changed.
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